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In general, American political discourse isn't terribly civil. But critics of Israel's far-right government and its enablers at home aren't even allowed to throw a sharp elbow.
The latest round in the long and nasty debate over Israel, Palestine and our own government's Mideast policy began with a coordinated campaign -- initiated by a former AIPAC staffer and eagerly picked up by the conservative media -- to marginalize a handful of progressive bloggers at the Center for American Progress and Media Matters who wrote critically of Israel's hard-right government and called its enablers in the United States "Israel Firsters." (I wrote about the dust-up in December.)
Dear Israel Lobby, We Give Up -- Please Give Us an Acceptable Way of Insulting You
Seeded on Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:38 AM EST
Article Source: AlterNet.org
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- Public Discussion (267)
The problem stems from the objective fact that there are a group of Americans – disproportionately represented among right-wing Christian evangelicals and older generations of Jewish-Americans – who ally themselves with the Israeli government. They do so regardless of its ideological bent at the moment and deny that the Palestinians have legitimate grievances (sometimes going so far as to deny their existence). They wish away the cruelty of the occupation, pretend that there are only rejectionists on the Palestinian side and Israel only wants peace, claim Israel has never violated international law or trampled on human rights, insist that Israeli Arabs don't face hostility and discrimination and go around calling everyone who disagrees anti-Semites and terror supporters.
- 18 votes
And whats wrong with aligning yourself with Israel the true friend and ally of the American people.
- 19 votes
Nothing is wrong with allying yourself with a TRUE ally, but Israel is nothing of the sort. They have never once come to our aid in the war on terror. After 9/11, Netanyahu crowed that 9/11 was "good for Israel". It "benefitted Israel". That's as anti-American statement as it gets. I don't ally myself with anti-Americans.
As for the label "anti-semitic", that's as worn out as Al Sharpton's race card. It long ago lost its true meaning, so it isn't taken seriously. You can't let it worry you or stop you from speaking your mind.
- 24 votes
And whats wrong with aligning yourself with Israel the true friend and ally of the American people.
USS Liberty
- 19 votes
Nothing is wrong with allying yourself with a TRUE ally, but Israel is nothing of the sort.
Indeed. Well said, as usual! I have always suspected that many American jews ally with Israel simply on religious grounds and whether they truly deserve that support or not. Yet no country is perfect in its actions.
- 14 votes
A true friend would not use their friends the way Israel uses us. They get weapons from us, they try to get us involved in wars that benefit them, costing the lives of young Americans. I don't appreciate it. I know you can excuse a lot of things friends do but trying to involve us in a war is just wrong. I am sure if they have to, they will throw us under the bus just as quickly. America is expendable and can't seem to see it.
I read an article on the Lavon affair:
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/lavon.html
It was a despicable thing to do.
- 13 votes
I am sure if they have to, they will throw us under the bus just as quickly.
I would second that too.
- 8 votes
I am sure if they have to, they will throw us under the bus just as quickly.
false
should read:
I am sure if they have to, they will throw us under the bus just as quickly. Then park the bus on top of the US and blow it up and blame some mulsim nation for it
- 11 votes
The USA and Israel have done nothing but commit terrorist acts against Iran left and right, along with oppressing Iran through very underhanded tactics such as taking out elected leaders and replacing them with someone who the people of Iran not only did not elect but they hate(d) as well. We gave Iran their nuclear program taking billions of their dollars in payment for our assistance and now we spend that money attacking them and supporting Israel :(
All we have ever cared about is our oil and oil profits, we have never taken into account the welfare of Iranians - Iran has very good reason to hate us & Israel. It just came out that Israel is working with a terrorist group that is on the USA terrorist organization(s) list! Israel has killed both Americans and Brits in terrible terrorist acts. Israel is born out of Israeli terrorism, oppression and theft of land & lives. I could list tons of facts to prove it - and I might have to in order to fend of being called a "anti-Semite" which I am not - I am anti-Zionist, big difference. I am against the idea of taking land from another people wholesale w/o proper compromise/acceptance from all sides. Zionist should have come to America and taken a state with our support if they needed a land of their own so bad :(
- 8 votes
Nothing is wrong with allying yourself with a TRUE ally
Even if Israel were a true ally, there's something wrong with putting any other nation ahead of your own. Even when it's an ally, that's wrong.
- 9 votes
If we want to use this type of mentality with Allies, why are we allied with anyone then? At some point in history we have had differences with almost every nation.
How about England and Japan why are we allies with them? They have done much worse to things to our nation than Israel ever has right?
- 4 votes
I don't think any of us have a full understanding of our partnership as allies. However I also think if we were not allies with Israel, they would be a rogue nation constantly at war regardless of who was at fault.
Like it or not we are their big brother and they listen to us. For now.
- 3 votes
Here is an example of Israel Firster
Israel-Firster Sheldon Adelson regrets serving in U.S. instead of Israeli military
He is Newt Gingrich's supporter
And here is another Israel firster
Mossad should kill Obama: US Jewish newspaper
In an article published in the January 13 edition of the daily, the Atlanta Jewish Times, Andrew Adler, who owns the paper, asked the readers to imagine they are the prime minister of Israel.
- 10 votes
Even if Israel were a true ally, there's something wrong with putting any other nation ahead of your own. Even when it's an ally, that's wrong
Touche.
If we want to use this type of mentality with Allies, why are we allied with anyone then? At some point in history we have had differences with almost every nation.
How about England and Japan why are we allies with them? They have done much worse to things to our nation than Israel ever has right?
We haven't been at war with England for about 200 years. We rebelled against them, and they responded as expected. Since then, we haven't had any problems. They NEVER committed terrorist actions against us and tried to blame another country, race or religion, as Israel has done, to try to get us embroiled in a war, or for any other reason. Same with Japan. While they attacked us, and we went to war, they have never since had hostilities with us. They didn't commit terrorist actions against us, either. And neither country has lobbies in place that seek to turn U.S. policy to their favor over our own interests. Can you even imagine a U.S. president swearing loyalty to Japan or England? Friendship, yes. But Israel demands our politicians swear loyalty.l Not good. Not in any way.
- 5 votes
But Israel demands our politicians swear loyalty.l Not good. Not in any way.
That is an error in Israel thinking, I don't think any nation can expect anyone to swear loyalty.
This is politics, this is how the game is played. It's nothing new, and it's nothing different than the U.S. and the U.N. condemning other nations for not jumping on board the Syria bandwagon.
Many nations lobby the U.S. for every single issue imaginable and multiple countries try to influence our policies to favor their interests. We fund over 20% of the U.N. which is made up of around 190 nations.
Like I said before like it or not the U.S. being allies with Israel is in the best interests of the world at this point.
And whats wrong with aligning yourself with Israel the true friend and ally of the American people.
If your opinion is that Israel is a "true friend and ally of the American people" and you support Israel, that's your call.
The main point of the article is that it's sometimes really frustrating to criticize the Israeli government and its loyal American lobby without getting smeared as an anti-Semite.
- 12 votes
I think we can all agree it's hard to criticize any form of thinking period, without being labeled by one group or another. That's the nature of politics.
I think we can all agree it's hard to criticize any form of thinking period, without being labeled by one group or another. That's the nature of politics.
If I declare my hate for the Nazi party I'm not accused of being anti-Germanic...
- 11 votes
Because Germany is a nation. An anti Semite is prejudice against Jews in an ethnic, religious or racial group. Remember Jews are not the only people who live in Israel. Catholics and Muslims also live there.
You would be considered anti-Nazi.
Jump onto another thread and claim your against a rise in taxes and see how fast your called a teabagger. Or claim you are in favor of social programs and see how fast your called a socialist.
- 3 votes
The fault in the Christian evangelicals who blindly support Israel is that they think they are the only Christians; they have forgotten about the indigenous Palestinian Christians who still suffer from the inception of Israel on their homeland.
"The Holy Scriptures cannot be used to justify the return of Jews to Israel and the displacement of the Palestinians, to justify the occupation by Israel of Palestinian lands," Monsignor Cyril Salim Bustros, Greek Melkite archbishop of Our Lady of the Annunciation in Boston, Massachusetts, and president of the "Commission for the Message," said at Saturday's Vatican press conference.
"We Christians cannot speak of the 'promised land' as an exclusive right for a privileged Jewish people. This promise was nullified by Christ. There is no longer a chosen people – all men and women of all countries have become the chosen people."
- 8 votes
Even parking spaces are restricted for non-Jews - Jerusalem's Armenians outraged as city approves Jews-only parking lot in Old City - "...protesting a municipal decision to designate a parking lot in the area solely for Jews, although part of it stands on land belonging to the Armenian Patriarchate."
- 10 votes
Even humiliating Palestinian Christians on checkpoints is normal procedure and it is funded and supported by the US taxpayers, thanks to AIPAC.
"Food for my wife, Christmas tomorrow. Meal for my family! I'll be back in the morning!"
- Elderly Palestinian man
Israeli Checkpoint On-Camera with No Shame [Must Watch Video]
- 9 votes
An anti Semite is prejudice against Jews
Yes, even if there are Semites that are not Jews. Odd how lexicons' etymology is often politically motivated seeing as the term anti-Semitic tries to deny the existence of other Semitic peoples.
But the point I was making is that criticism of Zionism or of Israel is not prejudice against Jews as a race or against Judaism as a Religion. Just as criticism of Nazism or Nazi Germany is not prejudice against the German people or their culture.
- 9 votes
....since the Iranian Persians, hate The Jews; dislike The Arabs; and Dis-Respect Both;
The Iranian Persians would Most definitely be, at the *top-of-the-list* as the most "Anti-Semitic"....
The Iranian Persians may not even have the patience, to wait for Israel's "prayed for" demise,
before their dislike for the Sunni Arabs, and their envy of The Sunni Arab Gulf State wealth,
moves their Persian Shi'a Ayatollah, to declare the Sunni Arabs,
those Sunni, *Non-Believers in The Awaited Mahdi*,
as "wrong believers", and Declare a Holy War against them.
The Persian Shi'a have killed Arab Sunni before, and, the Shi'a are killing Sunni NOW....
hmmm,....are we sure that The Saudi Arabia Sunni, will not take a page from Israel,
and The Saudi Arab Sunni, will ALSO, "talk" to The MEK?!
- 3 votes
It has to be a tribal thing since the Jews, Arabs and Palestinians all have the same genetic roots or at least they appear to.
http://epiphenom.fieldofscience.com/2009/01/shared-genetic-heritage-of-jews-and.html
There are a number of sites that say they are related.
- 6 votes
That was some creative copying and pasting. Don't forget the rest of it.
An anti Semite is prejudice against Jews
An anti Semite is prejudice against Jews in an ethnic, religious or racial group.
Just as an anti Semite would be prejudice against Arabs, Akkadians, Arameans, Babylonians, Ethiopians, and Phoenicians in an ethnic, religious or racial group.
Odd how lexicons' etymology is often politically motivated seeing as the term anti-Semitic tries to deny the existence of other Semitic peoples.
Is it because they deny the existence of those people? Or is it many of those people simply don't exist in the traditional term anymore? Most of them are now modern day Arabs residing in modern countries. At this point I think there are two groups of Semites left Arabs and Jews. I am curious what you think.
I agree with your second point.
- 4 votes
1954,Wire taps of the US embassy in Israel. 1956 U.S. military attaché residence wire tapped. Many other spying incidents besides Pollard. Israel is no friend of the USA. It's been a parasitic relationship from the start. America should go it's own way and let Israel do the same. The welfare checks have got to end.
The scariest credible news I have read recently comes from Dr. Alan Sabrosky, Director of Studies and Professor at the U.S. Army War College. Legitimate ties between Mossad and 9/11.
With the recent news about Israel recruiting terrorists(An article in the Nation I read the other day) posing as CIA operatives. I'm sure Israel will deny it but with Israel's history... I think there is too much evidence to ignore.
Israel is not a friend. Israel Firsters in the USA are a clear and present danger. Traitors, plain and simple.
- 8 votes
Don't forget the rest of it.
What for, the sentence reads the same with or without the rest.
Just as an anti Semite would be prejudice against Arabs, Akkadians, Arameans, Babylonians, Ethiopians, and Phoenicians in an ethnic, religious or racial group.
No, anti Semite specifically refers to prejudice against Jews, even though there are other Semitic groups still in existence.
Is it because they deny the existence of those people? Or is it many of those people simply don't exist
Many Semitic peoples still exist. You could name all the non-intact groups you'd like but I am talking about the ones still around.
- 8 votes
Lobby? No one really be allowed to tell me what to say or not to say especially no way in hell will anyone be allowed to tell me what to do or no to do.
- 4 votes
ha, ha - cute angle to defy the "pro-Israel" label as appropriate. Of course debate about controlling the language is actually about controlling the broader debate. Personally I'm happy to see that debate and discussion continues to flourish despite the minions who protest (through myriad excuses including insult) every criticism.
- 13 votes
#2 - Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:12 AM ESTI don't have much respect for those who can't stand constructive criticisms, those types are impossible to co-exist with. If I am doing something wrong, if my actions are bringing about more harm than good, please criticize my actions, bring before my eyes the mistake I am making, and if I am smart, I will factor in the suggestions given.
No one is infallible. When one or both sides of any disagreement says "I am right no matter what", there can be no true communication, there is no middle ground, no points of agreement, all interactions will remain futile. To solve any problem, one must take in all the variables, one must be able to sympathize with the opposing party, one must have the ability to understand other perceptions, one must be able to reflect within oneself and uncover any prejudices that may be hindering any viable solution.
"The secret to happiness is this: let your interests be as wide as possible and let your reactions to people, ideas and events be as far as possible, friendly rather than hostile." Bertrand Russell.
Be well, keep growing.
Peace.
Link
- 15 votes
#3 - Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:04 PM ESTNo one is infallible. When one or both sides of any disagreement says "I am right no matter what", there can be no true communication, there is no middle ground, no points of agreement, all interactions will remain futile.
This deserve TONS of votes! Great summary! And that is exactly what has been happening in the Middle East because arrogance has taken the place of compromise.
- 8 votes
Iran is right though. Sometimes one side is right and the other is wrong, and in this case Israel is wrong and Iran is right - period.
Israel, USA and other nations can not say in one breath that nuclear power is vital to our energy future and meeting the most basic needs of our Nations' populace - and in the other breath say Iran has no need for nuclear energy.
Israel & USA can not claim NUKES as helpful in ending ww2 and in preventing future major wars or attacks on their country - and then in a second breath claim that Iran has no biz having nukes and must be stopped from having them at all cost.
That is if USA and Israel don't want to painfully show just how fully two-faced we really are :(
- 9 votes
James,
All sides of any disagreement must remain open to hear opposing arguments, if they truly seek any solution to a problem. We tend to get caught in dichotomies, either or, right and wrong, yes and no, us and them. When in reality, nothing is clear cut, things are better understood in varying degrees and gradations.
The best solution to any problem is an equal compromise by all parties involved.
But, overall, I agree with you, those who wield more power wish to compromise nothing, while demanding the weaker to give up everything.
It is the leaders that screw everything up for the people. We are all just pawns in the narcissistic game of Global Domination, we are to them, Human Capital, expendable.
I think it is time we ask them to step aside, let us handle our own problems. We see where their path leads, perpetual war, hate and misery.
Attention all leaders, our future is brighter without you!
- 4 votes
James,
All sides of any disagreement must remain open to hear opposing arguments, if they truly seek any solution to a problem.
Tell that to Israel.
The best solution to any problem is an equal compromise by all parties involved.
So if you are mugged, and are rolling around with your mugger each of you with a hand on the muggers gun, it is best to as him to compromise? Maybe ask him if you let go and give him half of what is in your wallet if it would be alright if the two of you just shake hands and move on in life? I don't think so!
If you came home tomorrow and found someone living in your house, would the best solution be to offer the person half your house rather than create conflict? I don't think so!
Same logic with what Israel has done - taken a land away from a people who were already living there - and people ask for compromise!?!
Only in the way one might make a deal with the Devil :(
- 5 votes
Correction - Meant to put this in quotes in msg#3.4:
The best solution to any problem is an equal compromise by all parties involved.
- 3
- !
#3.3 - Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:35 PM PST
Compromise is not what is needed. Justice is needed.
Justice is the mugger going to jail, not going home with half your money along with having put you through an experience that had a 50/50 chance of taking your life.
Justice is the person who broke into your home being arrested and charged with trespassing and burglary.
The end of Israel does not have to come in the form of a mushroom cloud and it is hard to imagine it happening even if Iran does have nukes - if anything Israel would be the first to use them.
The end of Israel could mean as little as giving up the name of Israel while still allowing Zionist Jews to still live where they are for the most part with great GREAT GREAT monetary compensation to all Palestinians along with social problems to assist Palestinians in overcoming all the built up adversity of being brutally oppressed for so long.
It could mean keeping the name Israel but granting equal rights to everyone plus great GREAT GREAT monetary compensation to Palestinians plus all the social programs to assist them.
It could even mean a mass migration of Zionist out of Israel and into the back of immigration lines of countries who are willing to take them just like Iraq war refugees have done/are doing.
In a court, with a judge, layers, plaintiff and defendant - is the goal to find a compromise? Or is the goal justice?
- 5 votes
C: The end of Israel could mean as little as giving up the name of Israel while still allowing Zionist Jews to still live where they are for the most part with great GREAT GREAT monetary compensation to all Palestinians along with social problems PROGRAMS to assist Palestinians in overcoming all the built up adversity of being brutally oppressed for so long.
Peace can very well come from Palestine simply accepting Israel as a State - but that would be asking Palestine to go far above and beyond average human capacity, asking them to do the saintly thing in the face of terrible adversity on the level of Jesus turning the other cheek and passing the basket of bread to a known murderer out to get him. While not impossible, it must be acknowledged that if Palestine were to do so, they would by far be the bigger Nation of the two going far above and beyond their normal duty, and should then be treated as the Saints they are/would be. While no matter what Israel does, if Israel were somehow able to give up their pure bigotry and "grant" equality to everyone, not just Jews - Israel would/will still be the mugger who got off scott free only because they attacked a saintly Nation who in the end was willing to turn the other cheek, pass the bread, grant forgiveness & give their blessing to a mugger of a Nation.
USA is still working on correcting wrongs commited by slavery - it would take a long long long time to correct things even after the conflict ends however it ends even if boths sides choose to "compromise" - but that is the way it is...
- 5 votes
The *PACT* of The THREE Territories, of Traditional *Roman Palestine*
The Kingdom of Jordan; Jordanian Hashemite Majority, Jordanian Sunni Minority
The State of Israel; Israeli Jewish Majority, Israeli Sunni Minority, Israeli Christian Minority
The State of Palestine (to BE); Palestinian Sunni Majority, Palestinian Jewish Minority
*PACT* of Mutual Benefit and Mutual Defense
ALL Three, Defending Against ANY Enemy of One, or Two, or ALL Three.
SWORN *PACT*
SWORN by Each State, and Each People
SWORN on THE LIVES of THEIR Children
Inshallah
GOD's WILL
- 2 votes
Justice is needed.
True, but everyone's concept of justice is different.
For the most part I agree with what you have written.
The Palestinian plight is one that no one would accept.
Israel has committed many crimes:
-Stealing Uranium from the US in the 50's and 60's (Documented)
-They conduct, to date, the largest spying campaign in America (Documented by the FBI)
-Attempted to sell Nuclear weapons to Apartheid South Africa in the 70's (Documented)
-Steal land (Documented)
-displace innocent people (Documented)
-War crimes (Documented)
-Crimes against civilian populations (Documented)
-Foreknowledge of 9-11 (Dancing Israeli's on 9-11 "We were there to document the events.") Confession on Israeli TV, DOCUMENTED.
I could go on.
Let us remember, that America has done its fair share to bestow mass misery upon the world.
Arab, Muslim countries are not excluded.
The fact is, No ones hands are clean.
I think it is time for forgiveness, meaningful dialog and understanding.
The past is the past, it is done.
"The place to be happy is here, the time to be happy is now, the way to be happy is to make others happy." RG Ingersoll
Peace to you.
Be well.
Link
- 3 votes
I don't normally respond in these articles, but I was truly amazed by this particular comment.
The end of Israel could mean as little as giving up the name of Israel while still allowing Zionist Jews to still live where they are for the most part
Because Jews have had such great success living amongst Muslims and other cultures throughout history? I mean it's not like the majority of countries surrounding Israel have not said that it is a goal of theirs to eliminate Israel, right?
with great GREAT GREAT monetary compensation to all Palestinians along with social
problemsPROGRAMS to assist Palestinians in overcoming all the built up adversity of being brutally oppressed for so long.
Bull@!$%#. First, Israel has existed for going on 64 years now, and before that time Jews were brutally oppressed for at least 500 years throughout the world. While neither oppression is ok, trying to compare a period of 64 years to multiple centuries is just wrong. Second, Israel is not the only one to oppress the Palestinians, maybe you forgot that none of the other countries in the Middle East want/ed them either?
While no matter what Israel does, if Israel were somehow able to give up their pure bigotry and "grant" equality to everyone, not just Jews - Israel would/will still be the mugger who got off scott free only because they attacked a saintly Nation who in the end was willing to turn the other cheek, pass the bread, grant forgiveness & give their blessing to a mugger of a Nation.
What nation has Israel "mugged"? Did Palestine become a country at some point? Also, is Palestine not ruled by a party (Hamas) that in its founding statement called for the obliteration of Israel, and killing Jews in general? While they disavow the relevancy of the charter now, they also say that it can not be changed... (See Wiki article on Hamas for material)
But yeah that completely sounds like a "Saintly Nation" to me. Both sides have committed atrocities in this fight, so trying to paint one or the other as the clean participant is extremely dishonest.
- 5 votes
Because Jews have had such great success living amongst Muslims and other cultures throughout history? I mean it's not like the majority of countries surrounding Israel have not said that it is a goal of theirs to eliminate Israel, right?
Yes, right. Jews babysat the children of Arab women and vise versa before the establishment of Zionist Israel - there was not the conflict between Jews and Arabs then that there is today under an Oppressive State of Israel - it was only when Zionist took land and lives to permanently establish their own homeland that the major problems arose. There were plenty of Jews living there already before Israel.
- 7 votes
There were plenty of Jews living there already before Israel.
Absolutely right. They were friends and neighbors in the "Old country". There are some old enough to testify to that truth.
- 6 votes
Is there an acceptable way of insulting gays? Negroes, Muslims, or anybody else. ?
I am all for a palestinian state as long as it recognizes Israel's right to exist.
When people disagree with Obama they are called racists. When people disagree with Israel they are called anti semites. Can a person disagree with a policy or position without hate.? I know I can.
- 5 votes
#4 - Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:07 PM ESToh geez Redder the authors were not looking for an acceptable way to insult an ethnic or racial group. If you'd read the seed you'd know they were talking about a specific political position that is not restricted to just one group identifable in such a way.
- 12 votes
I am all for a palestinian state as long as it recognizes Israel's right to exist.
Why should Israel be allowed to exist? Even if it took a hundred years or a full generation or two, why not kick all Zionist out of Israel sending them to the USA and Britian to live?
Why should we just ignore the fact that less than one hundred years ago Zionist simply took the land of Palestine from the people who lived there already - taking the land on nothing more than "biblical claims" to the land!?!
Slavery and Jim Crow was taught in the Pews of Churches as "biblical law" too :(
Why should you or I or the Palestinian people just give in to the criminals who took their homes, burned their orchards out of pure hate, and have opressed them in the worst of ways ever since then?
I understand it is nice to say we should all just get along, but if we were still within a hundred year window of having discovered America and beginning the wholesale taking of land and lives form Native Americans here in the USA, it would make sense to work on undoing the terrible wrongs and to then work on correcting them or insuring that hardships are severally minimized. It would have prevented hundreds of years of scalping the skull caps off Natives selling them in towns for money/bounties - it would have prevented the "trail of tears", one of the worst acts of genocide which even Hitler admired and modeled his internment camps after.
Yes, when both sides say they are right it is hard to move forward peacefully, but what is to be done when one side really is right and the other side really is wrong?
I'm not saying Israel should be blown of the face of the earth, that would be silly - I am saying it makes sense to start depopulating Israel of Jews/Zionist, giving land back to it's proper owners and compensating Palestinians for lost property, especially from intentional burnings of their crops by Israeli settlers. Spread the Zionist throughout the USA and other western nations - it is never right to just take a land from another people :( Like it or not, Israel is still fresh enough to contemplate giving it back to it's people - the people who were living there for hundreds of years generation after generation until Zionist began terrorising them out of existence installing the oppressive State of Israel.
- 7 votes
The problem with zionism is that it claims the right to that land based on biblical writings. Putting aside the obvious - that using a holy book, wh ich can't ever be proven to be true, is ridiculous - the Torah is very clear that the Jews will not have a homeland until God gives it to them. Sorry, but the British Mandate does not qualify!
- 7 votes
actually, there are significant historical documents from the Romans confirming the exile.
- 1 vote
actually, there are significant historical documents from the Romans confirming the exile.
Whether that "exile" actually happened, it was not a whole sale "exile" for the whole Hebrews. The majority remained in Palestine and then converted to Christianity or Islam, and they are the ancestors of the today oppressed and displaced Palestinians.
Shlomo Sand: There are Israeli, not Jewish people
- 7 votes
despite that favorite chestnut of anti-Semitic fiction, one of the by-products of the human genome product was demonstrating that the Jews of Europe are in fact of the Cohen and Levite tribes and more closely related to the Jews who remained in the middle East than to Europeans.
- 4 votes
What! Is the Israeli Jewish historian Shlomo Sand anti-Semitic? That is a good watch and listen link in #4.5.
- 6 votes
apparently he's one of those Jews who thinks some are more jewish than others, like blacks who hate on light skinned blacks or shia v sunni muslims.. hate is always stupid and should not be given credence.
- 6 votes
And there is more, rather important reminder, raising the flag of anti this and anti that does cheapen the argument and might lead to catastrophes in the future if real atrocities happen – remember cry wolf!?
- 5 votes
Israel has its hands full fighting terror daily, Israel has Islamic terrorism to deal with daily and both countries share info they are true allies.
Don't forget how many Hezbollah killed Americans in the early 80's and don't forget the 1993 and 2011 world trade centre bombings by Islamic terrorists.the uss cole and so much islamic terror on america and the world.
- 5 votes
#6 - Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:03 PM ESTCould Israel have been behind 9-11? Or even had advanced knowledge of the attack?
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=123885&page=1
All I do know is that many of the alleged terrorists are still alive and looking well for having been apart of a suicide attack...
- 7 votes
Israel is born form Zionist Terrorism, they have derailed trains killing people, they have killed Americans, Brits and others. Zionist terrorism is real too, look it up on Google - we as the NAtion of USA once had to very much fear Israeli terrorism committed by Zionist terrorist - not Islamic terrorist.
And just like Iraq, Palestine had nothing to do with 911!
- 6 votes
Hippocrates, that's not out of the realm of possbility, since the uncle of one pilot, Ziad Jarrah, WAS found to have been a Mossad agent.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/19/world/middleeast/19lebanon.html
- 6 votes
they have derailed trains killing people, they have killed Americans, Brits and others
They even bombed a civilian ocean liner carrying 1800 Jewish refugees escaping Nazi Europe...
- 5 votes
Hippocrates, that's not out of the realm of possbility, since the uncle of one pilot, Ziad Jarrah, WAS found to have been a Mossad agent.
Yeah, not to mention the millionaire Israel Commando whose listed seat was arranged in pattern with all the "hijackers" of that plane. An Israeli commando from Sayeret Matkal, which, according to Wiki, is "a field intelligence-gathering unit, conducting deep reconnaissance behind enemy lines to obtain strategic intelligence, Sayeret Matkal is also tasked with counter-terrorism and hostage rescue beyond Israel's borders. The unit is modeled after the British Army's Special Air Service".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_M._Lewin
What are the odds of a trained counter-terrorist commando, trained in Airplane hijacking, would be on the plane? Are we to believe, with his Krav Maga training, box cutters did him in?
- 6 votes
2001 world trade centre-911
The Palestinians had nothing to do with that.
- 6 votes
"Are we to believe, with his Krav Maga training, box cutters did him in?"
Actually, yes we are.
The reason the 9-11 attacks worked is that they had the total element of surprise and there's no reason to think that wouldn't work inside the airplane too.
Wikipedia has this to say about it:
A 2002 FAA memo suggests he may have been killed by Satam al-Suqami after he attempted to foil the hijacking. According to the FAA, Lewin was seated in business class in seat 9B, close to hijackers Mohamed Atta and al Suqami (who was possibly seated behind him). It was first reported that he had been shot by al Suqami, although this assertion was later changed to a stabbing. According to the 9/11 Commission, Lewin may have been stabbed in the throat whilst trying to foil the hijacking, not knowing that al Suqami was sitting just behind him. Lewin was identified as the first victim of the September 11 attacks.
9-11 conspiracy nuts belong in the same category as the people who still believe in Roswell aliens.
- 3 votes
do you have a link for your quote?
According to the 9/11 Commission, Lewin may have been
"may have been"? That alone should say something to you..
How could they know what may or may not have happen in a plane that became a fireball? By your own source's admission, their version is pure speculation.
9-11 conspiracy nuts belong in the same category as the people who still believe in Roswell aliens.
What would you call someone who believed speculations are the same as verifiable facts?
- 5 votes
The reason the 9-11 attacks worked is that they had the total element of surprise
Only if you believe there was an intelligence failure. The same kind of intelligence failure that sold America on Iraq having Nuclear Weapons... The same kind of intelligence failure that avoided the "Saudi hijackers" and "Pakistani financiers" of 9-11 just to invade Afghanistan and Iraq. I guess it's plausible, heck, the CIA didn't know the Soviet Union was going to Collapse until the Berlin wall started to fall on their heads!
I'll wait until I'm provided evidence of guilt before I form an opinion on who was "really" responsible for 9-11.
- 4 votes
This has always caught my interest concerning 911 & Israel:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRfhUezbKLw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVdAOmUduEQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-B2J7tp8eg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztgz_W4cOdw&feature=related
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7545.htm
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/09/17/gordon-duff-caught-mossad-paid-by-u-s-to-spy-on-dissidents-tea-party-environmentalists/ Even the Tea Party is not immune!
- 4 votes
Thanks for the links
Even the Tea Party is not immune!
I was once given an explanation for why Israel's MOSSAD is 'allowed' to spy/operate on US Soil. Coming from the person I heard it from I don't believe it, but as I was told, the CIA's charter forbids the CIA from operating domestically - which is true even if it's not always 'obeyed' - so they 'let' MOSSAD do it, proving they share information. Nonsense. We have the FBI and NSA and other 3 letter names to spy Domestically, so any spying Israel does is for her own benefit (like all the Industrial and Military Espionage).
- 6 votes
Infrared-They both are sources of information, whether we agree with them or not. This debate will go on forever.IMO Israel may not be perfect, as if the US is, but Israel's stance is the less of 2 evils. Israel is a microscopic country surrounded by huge Muslim countries that all want to devour her. Israel has been a military friend in oh so many ways. Israel's great minds have given us everything from this computer I'm on, to medical miracles, to Ipods, and gazillions of other major inventions. I may not agree with Israel's politics all the time, but I don't agree with a lot of. ourUS politics either. I stand with Israel.
- 3 votes
#7 - Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:09 PM ESTIsrael invented the iPod? Seriously? You are going to claim that?
israel managed to fend off when the nation was truly under threats nowadays Israel is becoming a bully and any aggressive response from other nations is a response from the bullying. The 1967 war was started by Israel, remember that.
- 8 votes
Israel is a microscopic country surrounded by huge Muslim countries that all want to devour her.
But the actions of its military, and the impact it has had on the lives of others is far from microscopic!!
Israel is becoming a bully and any aggressive response from other nations is a response from the bullying.
Amen to that!! Absolutely spot on, which is why its critics are growing.
- 8 votes
There is never ever, a small amount of critics when it comes to Israel world history attests to that.
Israel is held up to a much higher standard by the worlds media which is anti-semitism.
- 2 votes
There is never ever, a small amount of critics when it comes to Israel world history attests to that.
I disagree. there was a time when many Britons were on the side of Israel. With every new atrocity, those numbers have dwindled. I think they lost the most support beginning with the carnage in Lebanon.
- 12 votes
Are you refering to the response Israel did after being the recipient of tens of thousands of rockets.
Did you think Israel will just send over a dozen of dunkins?
- 2 votes
Are you refering to the response Israel did after being the recipient of tens of thousands of rockets.
how many of those rockets have actually killed someone?
- 8 votes
When does the body count trump the crime.
The rockets were intended to kill innocent israelis if they missed there target thank G_D FOR ISRAEL.
LETS SEE WHAT AMERICA WILL DO TO MEXICO IF THEY START LOBBYING ROCKETS INTO CALIFORNIA.
I don't the think the usa will wait for number 10000 like israel did, i think after the second they will level the nearest city.
ya think!!!
- 4 votes
when does the body count trump the crime.
you were just arguing that israel has serious threats. if there isn't serious issues going on where there are thousands of deaths the threat isn't really serious.
- 7 votes
LETS SEE WHAT AMERICA WILL DO TO MEXICO IF THEY START LOBBYING ROCKETS INTO CALIFORNIA.
Mexico is not firing rockets into the U.S. because the U.S. is not constantly reconfiguring its borders and annexing land that does not belong to them.
- 7 votes
Mexico is not firing rockets into the U.S. because the U.S. is not constantly reconfiguring its borders and annexing land that does not belong to them.
Well said, DrBrooks, thank you!!
- 6 votes
el Israel's great minds have given us everything
Didn't know Industrial Espionage is a criteria for invention?
http://www.jweekly.com/article/full/7380/fbi-says-israel-a-major-player-in-industrial-espionage/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/may/31/israel
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/8524198/Russia-expels-Israeli-military-attache-for-industrial-espionage.html
http://www.haaretz.com/news/court-remands-top-israeli-execs-in-industrial-espionage-affair-1.159878
http://www.haaretz.com/news/top-tier-israeli-firms-suspected-of-spying-on-competition-1.159862
DrBrooks Mexico is not firing rockets into the U.S. because the U.S. is not constantly reconfiguring its borders and annexing land that does not belong to them.
Yeah, lol, we only stole their land those 2 times and it was so long ago ;) I would also support giving the Western part of America back to Mexico (we don't use it much and we mined all the gold already). Can I get an amen brother DrBrooks? :D
- 6 votes
- 5 votes
Our misdeeds/actions against/with Native Americans was mishandled terribly - it went terribly wrong (what at the time we felt was right) and as a result we have Reservations in desperate states of existence where many people don't even have running water while living in states like Ca where Apple Computer was invented.
We gave Hitler ideas on how to persecute people including Jews though our genocide of Native Americans - Hitler specifically liked our 'Trail of Tears' and the way we simply marched the Native Americans to death.
It would make sense to correct such wrongs, we are still doing so - even though we can and should do better.
It makes much more sense to correct wrongs by Israel against Palestinians - especially because the taking of land is still fresh and occurring - plus the beginning of the ethnic cleansing is still within the fist hundred years of its birth. We in America are hundreds of years past our criminal taking of land from the people who lived there/here.
We still work to correct the wrongs of Slavery and Jim crow - with programs such as affirmative action. There are people still alive today in America who had to live under the terror of Jim Crow - the issue is hardly at rest for them as they have lived what is trying to be righted though actions taken today such as affirmative action.
Israel is wrong, period. The window of time to correct this wholesale mistake of a Nation in very peaceful (albeit difficult for many) way is still very much open. This should involve the state if Israel being dissolved even if the Zionist currently there get to stay in a limited way, and land stolen from people should be given back to them or they (Palestinians) should be given ample monetary compensation for their loss.
- 5 votes
I wonder if American supporters of Zionism believe that all the land taken from the indigenous nations of America should be returned. All American citizens currently residing in land that formally belonged to an indigenous nation could just be moved next door and the rightful owners of the land (the "Indians") could just build a wall and regulate the travel and commerce of the transplanted Americans to the point of strangulation.
That's how Zionism works right?
- 6 votes
#8 - Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:26 PM ESTactually it would be more like the Arapahoe (for example) moving back to their occupied land, buying it up, the declaring it an independent nation, and then successfully fighting off American attempts to conquer them for 60 years.
could you argue they didn't successfully establish a nation on their native land?
- 7 votes
Do past misdeeds by America justify Israel's misdeeds of today?
- 8 votes
Great question, Hippocrates....and delighted to be a friend! :o)
- 5 votes
hint: you don't win an argument with insults, you win with facts.
- 3 votes
#9 - Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:31 PM ESTThere is no acceptable way to insult any lobby. Don't insult people. If you don't like their position come up with some valid counter-arguments.
Insulting people you disagree with is not allowed on the Vine, for good reason, and shouldn't be allowed anywhere else either. Not even to "let off steam".
- 10 votes
#10 - Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:40 PM ESTThis "Israeli-firster" label issue is pretty much a US phenom applying as noted in the seed to Christian Zionist and older American Jews, but Dennis, I think you'd be sharp enough to have picked up the "insult" as tongue in cheek.
- 10 votes
Yes, well, credit where due. So your literal reading of a desire to insult reinforcedby scold and caution might be interpreted as ... what? Did you skip over the valid arguments of the seed too?
- 9 votes
Hardly, I've have been active elsewhere on this seed. Did you skip over my valid arguments?
- 4 votes
Other than your misguided #10 none of your comments or arguments related to the seeded opinion. But they did make me think you'd be an Israeli-firster as the author described.
- 6 votes
I support Israel wholeheartedly, but not in every act it does or policy it follows. I do so because I am older than most of you and I remember the whole history of the modern state of Israel and the 60 year unrelenting campaign of the Arabs to destroy Israel and to confuse and deceive the rest of the world about the history of the so-called Palestinians, who, are in fact not a real "people" but a conglomerate of types, religions, and ethnic backgrounds who have no legitimate claim that they as a people are entitled to the land in dispute.
But I recognize that in the eyes of the Arabs and the Muslim world, and much of the rest of the world there is a perception of a Palestinian "people" with legitimate aspirations for a state. It is the perception that must be dealt with in the real world, and so I support a two state solution. But I insist that the world take the time and effort to relearn the true history of the dispute, and for that matter the true history of Muslim oppression of the Jews almost from the beginning of Islam. We have a practical problem to deal with for the sake of peace, but for the sake of truth we must recognize that it is hardly a matter of resolving the "just claims' of a "people" to reclaim land that they have owned from "time immemorial" which is their big lie.
Let's just start with an undisputed historical fact. The Jews have occupied this land continuously for over 5,000 years. Islam was born only about 1300 years ago. Let's follow with another indisputable fact. There never was a state known as Palestine. A little honest studying of history will provide you with the rest of the detail.
And as for cruelty, if you aren't old enough to remember the Achille Lauro highjacking and how an elderly Jewish American in a wheel chair was rolled off the deck and into the sea just for fun by the Palestinian terrorists, you don't know anything about cruelty. If you aren't old enough to know about the letter sent to Von Ribbentrop by the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem protesting that the Nazis were permitting 700 Jewish children to come to Palestine during WWII and demanding that they be sent back to the Polish ghetto to die, you don't know anything about cruelty. If you don't remember how families, including children, were murdered in their beds by Arab marauders during the war launched by the Arabs to abort the birth of Israel, then you don't know anything about cruelty. If you don't remember how people in the lobby of a German airport were indiscriminately machine gunned by Palestinian terrorists or how the Israeli Olympic wrestling team was murdered by Palestinian terrorists at the Munich Olympics, you don't know anything about cruelty. And if you don't wish to acknowledge that Palestinians send their children wearing bombs to blow up themselves and Israeli children in pizza parlors or on buses, then you don't actually care about cruelty.
And if you don't know that Arab media constantly runs propaganda and cartoons depicting Jews in disgusting hate filled ways like the Nazis and the Klan did then you don't know anything about the bigotry and the willingness of the Arab/Muslim/Palestinian society to lie and deceive and to indoctrinate their people and their children with hate and blood lust for Jews.
And just in case you don't get it, if you think Israel gives a hoot about your tender feelings for the most violent people on earth, the Palestinians, then you don't understand anything about the Jewish will to survive and the determination that is shown in the slogan, "Never Again."
- 11 votes
the most violent people on earth, the Palestinians
I guess it doesn't take much to exaggerate a people or situation to justify our own actions. I take it that Israel has been pretty passive and peaceful in the face of such violent people?
Reciting history does nothing for the present except to self righteously justify new atrocities and retaliations. Only an eye on the future, and a new vision, can save the present.
- 6 votes
demo Scout- Voted up a thousand times in my heart! Very eloquent! Right on and factual.
- 5 votes
A new vision would be a great idea. If the WB/Gaza arabs were to expand their vision to admit the notion of accepting Israel as it is, the homeland of the Jewish nation, that would help. If they were to expand their vision to include living peacefully alongside Israel permanently instead of forever harbouring hopes of one day removing it wholesale. If they were to incorporate into their vision the idea that indoctrinating their children to hate Israel and Jews from birth was a sure fire way of prolonging the conflict indefinitely.
Yes there is much that could be gained from a new vision.
How about the PA accepting the repeated offer of peace talks, with everything on the table, as opposed to making excuses to stay out of talks?
How about the arab world trying a new vision which does not involve artificially keeping the WB/Gaza arabs in refugee status, sacrificing their welfare to use as a political weapon in pursuit of the destruction of Israel?
There are many ways in which the vision could be improved. Maybe Israel could improve its behaviour too but the fundamental lack of vision is all on the arab side.
- 11 votes
A new vision would be a great idea. If the WB/Gaza arabs were to expand their vision to admit the notion of accepting Israel
how long you going to keep pretending like that hasn't happened already?
- 5 votes
Until you or anyone else can show me the evidence that the WB/Gaza arabs are ready to accept Israel as the homeland of the Jewish nation.
- 9 votes
Until you or anyone else can show me the evidence that the WB/Gaza arabs are ready to accept Israel as the homeland of the Jewish nation.
letters of recognition
- 4 votes
There are many ways in which the vision could be improved. Maybe Israel could improve its behaviour too but the fundamental lack of vision is all on the arab side.
I agree with most of this statement except the part in bold. That's once again pretending that Israel is blameless when no one is infallible. :o(
- 7 votes
there was acceptance that israel has the right to exist, everything else is pointless mantra. it is incredibly childish.
let me give you an example, ever watch the tv show American Dad? Ever seen that old episode where Stan Smith goes to saudi arabia? Remember the two scenes were the Hailey tells Steve that in order for her to take him to the movies he has to say that she's the greatest environmentalist and so forth? and when they are in saudi arabia Hailey has to say to Steve that he is the greatest?
It is funny because it is ridiculous but that's a cartoon but here are two nations in some pointless and meaningless debate. who cares?
what i feel is going on is that there is an intentional method of trying to confuse people and get them to believe that the palestinians never recognized israel's right to exist.
But at this point this is the reality of the palesitian people.
regarding the kidnapping well it gives them another bargaining chip.
- 6 votes
there was acceptance that israel has the right to exist, everything else is pointless mantra
No. It is fundamental. It goes to the heart of the trust that is needed for peace to last. Accepting that Israel "has a right to exist" but not as the homeland of the Jewish people leaves open the possibility of the arabs working to try to turn Israel into something other than the Jewish homeland over time.
If Israel is going to make peace it has to be able to do so without watching its back all the time.
If Abbas is serious about peace why can he not accept Israel as it is, in its own vision. He expects Netanyahu to accept a Palestinian State in the image of its choosing.
If he wants peace then accepting Israel as it is is what it takes. No fudging.
- 9 votes
I agree with most of this statement except the part in bold. That's once again pretending that Israel is blameless when no one is infallible. :o(
No-one said Israel is infallible. But Israel accepts the notion of a Palestinian State in its chosen image. The opposite is not true. Israel only uses military force targeted at terrorists, to protects its own civilians. The opposite is not true. Israel (with a very few crazies aside) does not teach hatred and intolerance. The opposite is not true.
The fundamental obstacles are from the arab side. They change their position and we get peace in short order and on a fair basis, without any change in the Israeli position.
- 8 votes
No. It is fundamental.
No it is just plain dumb.
Accepting that Israel "has a right to exist" but not as the homeland of the Jewish people leaves open the possibility of the arabs working to try to turn Israel into something other than the Jewish homeland over time.
Israel already denies them a vote and treats them as second class citizens and been doing so for years. Recognition is signing an agreement that the policy is ok.
If Israel is going to make peace it has to be able to do so without watching its back all the time.
i think you got that mixed up there. who's the one who runs secret organizations that kill anyone they disagree with?
If Abbas is serious about peace why can he not accept Israel as it is, in its own vision. He expects Netanyahu to accept a Palestinian State in the image of its choosing.
becaues he isn't going to ever.
Netanyahu: Israel will agree to upgrade of Palestinian status, not statehood
Netanyahu balks at Abbas proposal for Palestinian state borders
If he wants peace then accepting Israel as it is is what it takes. No fudging.
funny how you completely ignored the bulldozing of homes.
- 5 votes
Let's just start with an undisputed historical fact....
So with all this brutality, what are you saying? We should feel sorry for Israel? We owe them something?
Let me draw a parallel for you.
The American Indian's descendants lived in what is now North America for over 10,000 years. Europeans did not even exist in this country, let alone "occupy" any part of it until about 400 years ago. Fact.
Within 200 years or so, most of these "savages" were slaughtered by the thousands by colonial expansionism. The cruelty was driven by the fact that many did not see Indians as human beings, but as animals just in the way. Fact.
Then we put them on "reservations" hoping they would keep to themselves. All the while, our popular media would belittle them, make fun of their culture in cruel ways on TV and movies. Fact.
Yet when people of other nations point out how badly we treated these people, we don't respond calling them "anti-Christian" or even "anti-US." As much as they have the right to, the Indians themselves don't constantly harangue about the unfairness in how their ancestors were treated, but seem more interested in living on a land to call their own and work toward their future.
History is rife with episodes of genocide and decimation of cultures. While parts of Jewish history are deplorable, they are just not all that unique. Your outrage about what happened to your people is justified, but shouldn't there be a time when that is worn out and we start thinking about peace?
For both Israel and the Palestinians, the excuse for violence is always "well they did this to us, so we did that to them!" Years and years of this animosity has bred true hatred, and if Israel wants to see real peace, they have to accept half the blame. If not, ultimately there is that old saying "When setting out for revenge it is best to dig two graves."
- 6 votes
the homeland of the Jewish people
It is no more a homeland for Jews than it is a homeland for Muslims and Christians... Only the fanatical Zionists see the land as belonging only to the Jews... Explains why there can be no peace. Israel's goal to "Judaize" the land is accomplished with Apartheid policies paramount to ethnic cleansing.
- 9 votes
The holy land is the Jewish homeland not the Christian or Muslim homeland
The Koran and Christian bible all say that .
If you believe in Israel you are a Zionist because another name for Israel is Zion.since i support Israel than i am a Zionist.
Feels great to be a Zionist!!!
- 3 votes
what does holy jewish land mean ? just another Alice in wonderland dream enforced to exist with weapons of mass destruction
- 7 votes
what does holy jewish land mean ? just another Alice in wonderland dream enforced to exist with weapons of mass destruction
Besides, didn't the Canaanites own the land first? Just because the early Hebrews murdered them all and stole their land doesn't make it theirs "forever".
- 7 votes
For both Israel and the Palestinians, the excuse for violence is always "well they did this to us, so we did that to them!" Years and years of this animosity has bred true hatred, and if Israel wants to see real peace, they have to accept half the blame. If not, ultimately there is that old saying "When setting out for revenge it is best to dig two graves."
This should be framed for posterity! Excellent comment, Roy, that truly sums it up!
Neither of those countries can exist at the expense of the other. That's what BOTH countries need to learn.
- 6 votes
Besides, didn't the Canaanites own the land first? Just because the early Hebrews murdered them all and stole their land doesn't make it theirs "forever".
But their G-d told them to replace the Canaanites and take their inheritance. Funny how you can only find Gods' approval in a book they wrote hundreds of years after the fact... Not much to use as a basis for redrawing modern maps with completely different demographics, unless the mitzvot to kill all the Amalikites still applies.
- 6 votes
Israel is the only true democracy in the middle east and our most reliable ally. They have bent over backwards to make peace with the Palestinians, who have responded with terrorist attacks, refusals to negotiate, insults and hatred taught in their schools and disseminated in their media.
- 6 votes
Israel is the only true democracy
LOL that's funny. no they aren't. they are a theocracy.
most reliable ally.
USS Liberty
They have bent over backwards to make peace with the Palestinians
by bulldozing down their homes?
refusals to negotiate
Hamas stated if Israel returns to pre-1967 borders then they will drop all rocket firing.
- 8 votes
Oh yeh, I forgot. Hamas always keeps their promises. Right! They state that even as they're lobbing missiles at Israel!
- 8 votes
Oh yeh, I forgot. Hamas always keeps their promises. Right! They state that even as they're lobbing missiles at Israel!
in reality you will have to make peace with your enemies. the firing of rockets is really the only chip that hamas has, not saying it is right but bulldozing of homes doesn't stop.
does that make any sense to you? do you think taking over land, destroying the homes and then building new homes for your people is correct? you don't think that would upset people and drive some into forming groups like hamas?
- 5 votes
Oh, poor Hamas. What option do they have but to commit acts of murder and terrorism. If only they had a stronger military they could go about destroying a legal state without having to resort to such measures.
Stick that line of argument.
They have it in their charter to destroy Israel, a legal state. That is wrong and they shouldn't be trying to do it by any means, terrorism or otherwise.
No apologising for Hamas, it won't wash.
- 10 votes
do you think taking over land, destroying the homes and then building new homes for your people is correct?
I guess it is all right in their book, so long as it is being done to someone else!! But if that was happening to Israel, the outcry would have been deafening by now.
No apologising for Hamas, it won't wash.
No one is apologising for Hamas because they are not blameless either. But the stark fact is that, with America being Israel's ally, Israel's action has become a bullying one, which makes any argument to paint Israel as current victims rather feeble.
- 6 votes
Hamas "will never recognize Israel," its Gaza prime minister said in a speech in Iran that is likely to complicate Palestinian efforts to form a unity government in the teeth of opposition from the Jewish state. "They want us to recognize the Israeli occupation and cease resistance but, as the representative of the Palestinian people and in the name of all the world's freedom seekers, I am announcing from Azadi Square in Tehran that we will never recognize Israel," Ismail Haniya said.
You do not have enough sugar for the kool-aid to spin that.
in reality you will have to make peace with your enemies
Not if you destroy them. Well, I guess that is peace.
- 11 votes
Oh, poor Hamas. What option do they have but to commit acts of murder and terrorism. If only they had a stronger military they could go about destroying a legal state without having to resort to such measures.
so you would sit idly by when your neighbor bulldozes down your home and builds on top of it and when you want to go to the store they make you go through insane checkpoints if they even bother to let you out?
They have it in their charter to destroy Israel, a legal state. That is wrong and they shouldn't be trying to do it by any means, terrorism or otherwise.
which they said they would drop if israel returns to pre-1967 borders.
You do not have enough sugar for the kool-aid to spin that.
letters of recognition.
- 6 votes
Everyone, please watch this short Video.
"Miko Peled is a peace activist who dares to say in public what others still choose to deny. Born in Jerusalem in 1961 into a well known Zionist family, his grandfather, Dr. Avraham Katsnelson was a Zionist leader and signer of the Israeli Declaration of Independence. His Father, Matti Peled, was a young officer in the war of 1948 and a general in the war of 1967 when Israel conquered the West Bank, Gaza, Golan Heights and Sinai.
Miko's unlikely opinions reflect his father's legacy. General Peled was a war hero turned peacemaker.
Miko grew up in Jerusalem, a multi-ethnic city, but had to leave Israel before he made his first Palestinian friend, the result of his participation in a dialogue group in California. He was 39.
On September 4, 1997 the beloved Smadar, 13, the daughter of Miko's sister Nurit and her husband Rami Elhanan was killed in a suicide attack.Peled insists that Israel/Palestine is one state—the separation wall notwithstanding, massive investment in infrastructure, towns and highways that bisect and connect settlements on the West Bank, have destroyed the possibility for a viable Palestinian state. The result, Peled says is that Israelis and Palestinians are governed by the same government but live under different sets of laws.
At the heart of Peled's conclusion lies the realization that Israelis and Palestinians can live in peace as equals in their shared homeland."
I found it highly insightful and helpful to my understanding the problems facing those in this conflict.
Peace to all of you.
Link
- 6 votes
What option do they have but to commit acts of murder and terrorism
Dennis, that vague statement can be equally applied to Israel's IDF/IAF...
- 5 votes
Why does israel have to return to 1967 borders and why does hamas a terrorist organization even care. the land known as Judea and Samaria was won by Israel against Jordan and Egypt the occupiers of Jewish land as the media likes to call it gaza and west bank they did not take it from the manufactured Palestinians!
Didnt Newt Gingrich call the Arab Palestinians an invented people? i got to agree with Newt on that one i dont agree on a lot of things politicians say but that i agree with!!
- 3 votes
Why does israel have to return to 1967 borders and why does hamas a terrorist organization even care
israel started a war and took over land that's the core of this whole conflict. this whole conflict between israel and palestinians has the 1967 war in its core.
known as Judea and Samaria was won by Israel against Jordan and Egypt the occupiers of Jewish land
it wasn't jewish land
the manufactured Palestinians
this isn't a terminator movie this is reality.
Didnt Newt Gingrich call the Arab Palestinians an invented people
his large head is not proportional to his minuscule intelligence.
- 7 votes
his large head is not proportional to his minuscule intelligence.
Priceless!! Thank you, infrared.
- 6 votes
Didnt Newt Gingrich call the Arab Palestinians an invented people?
Who the @!$%# cares what a bone head like Newt says?
The fact remains that the modern Israelis are for the most part from Europe while the Palestinians were the Israelites who never left during the Diaspora and converted to Christianity andIslam.
- 7 votes
Ms CYPRAH,
a question, please, IF you would....
WHO here, actually BELIEVES Jack Orion's #12.14 ??!!
NOT The part about Newt being a "bone-head".
I am merely curious....!
I WILL TAKE a NON-Answer from Any ALREADY Here, as a DIS-Belief of The Last Sentence of #12.14;
again, I am merely curious....!!!!
- 3 votes
WHAT are you
saying, because, I JUST, dont' know
.Can
YOU try TO type in, what, we LIKE to CALL english?
- 9 votes
Ms CYPRAH,
may I pose a question, please?!
The question, being;
is there anyone here, who actually believes that The Jews of Israel, are not Jews ?!
And the follow-up question being;
is there anyone here, who actually believes that The People, known as Palestinians, are actually Jews ?!
I will assume that a non-answer, is a disbelief that The Jews are not Jews, and that The Palestinians are Jews.
I am merely curious, as to the "beliefs" of those here.
- 4 votes
is there anyone here, who actually believes that The Jews of Israel, are not Jews ?!
According to Hungarian Jew Arthur Koestler, as put forth in "The Thirteenth Tribe", states that the majority of Jews who come from Europe are not Jewish by blood, he traces their roots to The Khazar Empire whose genetic makeup was Turkish.
Moreover, and strangely enough, there are those of African descent, who claim to be the true Israelites.
Interesting to say the least.
Be well.
- 5 votes
"Medieval Jewish History at Tel Aviv University, A. N. Poliak. His book Khazaria (in Hebrew) was published in 1944 in Tel Aviv, and a second edition in 1951. In his introduction he writes that the facts demand –
"a new approach, both to the problem of the relations between the Khazar Jewry and other Jewish communities, and to the question of how far we can go in regarding this [Khazar] Jewry as the nucleus of the large Jewish settlement in Eastern Europe . . . The descendants of this settlement – those who stayed where they were, those who emigrated to the United States and to other countries, and those who went to Israel – constitute now the large majority of world Jewry."
This was written before the full extent of the holocaust was known, but that does not alter the fact that the large majority of surviving Jews in the world is of Eastern European – and thus perhaps mainly of Khazar – origin. If so, this would mean that their ancestors came not from the Jordan but from the Volga, not from Canaan but from the Caucasus, once believed tobe the cradle of the Aryan race; and that genetically they are more closely related to the Hun, Uigur and Magyar tribes than to the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Should this turn out to be the case, then the term "anti-Semitism" would become void of meaning, based on a misapprehension shared by both the killers and their victims. The story of the Khazar Empire,as it slowly emerges from the past, begins to look like the most cruel hoax which history has ever perpetrated. "
Source "The Thirteenth Tribe" Pg.4-5- A. Koestler
- 8 votes
Ah, we have a One
Never said I believed it. I just happen to read A LOT. Thought I would give some info pertaining to your question
:)
- 3 votes
"You are Jewish. You wish you were a Jew"
Thanks for that priceless laugh and the link, Lincoln. :o)
- 8 votes
lincoln, I Know that you read a LOT;
MUCH is written about Arabs and Jews and Persians and Europeans and Africans and Asians;
and MANY UnTruths, as Told by an Enemy or a Racist;
lincoln, I am asking You, IF you *BELIEVED* that particular story?!
- 1 vote
OK mork - so why do you ask? What is the significance, to you, of how many people may believe in whatever heritage story? Get to the point (you do have one?).
- 5 votes
A point to draw from lincoln's youtube link is that one can, like a buffet, pick an choose biblical verses to support any position.
- 5 votes
I am open to go wherever the facts lead. But let us remember, many Jews are converts, and converting doesn't make their DNA change. Therefore, I believe some Jews are Jewish by blood, some are not.
Peace.
- 4 votes
Mork, I think my patience just ran out with your inane, off-topic, self indulgent comments. :o(
- 5 votes
I am open to go wherever the facts lead.
Don't misunderstand, my words were meant to show how people will use religion (holy books) to support any idea (often by picking and choosing the verses). I wasn't accusing you, but rather subtly referencing Christian Evangelicals on TV and also the Israeli/Palestinian religious leaders always preaching hate for the other while laying sole claim to the land based on race/religion/culture.
lincolnTherefore, I believe some Jews are Jewish by blood, some are not.
Yup. Notice the claim, by some, that Jews are a unique race, by blood, a chosen people, is very similar to the philosophy of eugenics that inspired the Nazi doctrine that Germans are also a unique race, by blood, a master race.
1: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2: racial prejudice or discrimination
Explains why the UN determined that Zionism is a form of Racism... Also explains the Hasbara campaign to have the Resolution rescinded, the only Resolution ever to have been, as condition for their participation in a fruitless Peace conference...
- 8 votes
Don't misunderstand, my words were meant to show how people will use religion (holy books) to support any idea (often by picking and choosing the verses).
Sorry, # 12.28 was a reply to Mork, didn't want my position taken out of context.
But thanks for the info:
Explains why the UN determined that Zionism is a form of Racism
i didn't know that... Interesting.
Again, apologies...
Peace...
- 5 votes
# 12.28 was a reply to Mork
Sorry, I didn't know people really did that. Your post makes more sense to me now.
i didn't know that... Interesting.
There's a lot people don't know because of the framing of this conflict by the media and politicians which has reduced the debate to mere talking points.
- 8 votes
Your post makes more sense to me now.
You were like, "Why his he after me, we are agreeing!"
FR accepted.
Peace.
:)
- 6 votes
I was once a Zionist and believed the entire story to be heroic. Over time my unquestioning support for Israel was eroded by questions of humanity, fairness, and oppression. My sympathies for the Zionists waned, and I became more sympathetic for the people of Palestine. The last straw was the wall built by Israel, much of it on land belonging to Palestinians. I saw the vast land-grab for what it is.
I first blamed the entire nation of Israel, and condemned Israel roundly. Over time I saw the unfairness of that, too. I know, now, that there are many moderates and liberals in Israel who, as Israelis and Jews, oppose the theft of land and oppression of the people of Palestine. The problem with, and in, Israel is akin to our own; the nation has a right-wing problem, a problem with fascists and their particular greed, militarism, and violence. Add to both Israel's and America's fascist repertoire of perversion the extremist religious factor, and you have two peas in the fascist pod.
The solution to fascism anywhere is moderation and liberalism. Supporting moderation and liberalism both in the USA and Israel will make both nations, and the world, better for everybody.
I am an inventor, by the way. I have a recent idea that I've considered marketing to an Israeli company. I have not done that. I am rather convinced they would steal my patent, and be given protection by their right-wing government. So I'll market my innovation elsewhere. (For what that's worth.)
- 6 votes
#13 - Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:41 PM ESTTake your invention to china they would love to work with you.
They safeguard copyright.
- 2 votes
The Chinese safeguard copyright ??!!
You are TOO Funny.
But, there can always be a first time....maybe....(maybe NOT).
<>
AS for The Muslim/ Jewish Conflict Over THIS LAND, And Chinese Support;
WHO do You-All THINK, the Chinese will Support, when The Saudi Sunni and The Iranian Shi'a Fight ?!!
Okay, okay; NOT TOO TOUGH a Question;
The Saudis HAVE THE OIL.
- 5 votes
infrared
letters of recognition. LOL LOL
When the facts on the ground contradict what is in your head, the facts must be wrong..... Hamas Accepts 1967 Borders, But Will Never Recognize Israel, Top Official Says
Speaking to Palestinian news agency Ma'an, Mahmoud Zahar says recognition of Israel would deprive future Palestinian generations of the possibility to 'liberate' their lands.Hamas would be willing to accept a Palestinian state within 1967 borders, a leader of the militant group, Mahmoud Zahar, told the Palestinian news agency Ma'an adding, however, that Hamas would never recognize Israel since such a move would counter the group's aim to "liberate" all of Palestine.
Maybe if you went Here things would be better for you.
- 6 votes
#14 - Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:57 PM ESTyou do realize your article talks about the end of fighting though right? the whole recognition is nothing but formality but the actual fighting is the problem, you know that right?
- 5 votes
recognition of Israel would deprive future Palestinian generations of the possibility to 'liberate' their lands.
In the context of that sentence how do you think future Palestinians would liberate their lands.
How do you have agreed borders with a country that does not exist?
Try the food forum.
- 8 votes
In the context of that sentence how do you think future Palestinians would liberate their lands.
don't know and don't care. i am not out to speculate.
- 6 votes
The problem stems from the objective fact that there are a group of Americans – disproportionately represented among right-wing Christian evangelicals and older generations of Jewish-Americans – who ally themselves with the Israeli government.
True-- although there are other types of people as well. For example, here's what President Obama said on the subject.
- 7 votes
#15 - Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:19 PM ESTnot true- Obama is not one of Israel firsters. He believes in Israel borders to be pre-67 and dis agrees often with Israeli policy and Israel firsters who are more than often willing to ignore Israel's violation of human rights and who support the Israeli extremists openly without condemning them for their acts of extremism against others.
- 7 votes
krishna, boy he sure gave Israel a verbal blow job didn't he?I wonder if this 2008 speech to AIPAC will be covered/rationalized on his new "Truth" website? Great find krishna!!
- 2 votes
krishna, boy he sure gave Israel a verbal blow job didn't he?I wonder if this 2008 speech to AIPAC will be covered/rationalized on his new "Truth" website?
My guess is that that would depend upon whether its an election year :-)
Most politicians (of both parties) cater to the majority of the voters when an election is coming up-- they need votes then to get elected. (Unfortunately that's how democracy works). But when the next one is far off,they go for the big money.
Great find krishna!!
Maybe.
President Obama (at least before this election) has actually been just as pro-Israel as past presidents.
In fact, he even gave bunker busters bombs to them-- something that even Bush refused to do:
- 6 votes
krishna,
maybe the Saudi Sunni's, are Afraid that The Persian Shi'a Will attack them!
"Pssst, President Obama"...."We will give you a GREAT DEAL on Oil"...."We will *Look-the-other-Way*...."
"Let Israel have the *Bunker-Buster* bombs...." "Shhhh...."
"We do NOT trust the Shi'a...." "The Shi'a are Liars...."
"Let the Israelis have as many *Bunker-Buster* bombs as they need, to END The Shi'a Threat of a Nuke...."
- 2 votes
krishna- Just read your reply. Pres has a hard job, I wouldn't want to be walking in his shoes right now.
- 3 votes
Haniyeh Trip Tehran Highlights Hamas Rift
Demonstrators carrying Iranian flags and pictures of Iranian Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei chanted "Death to Israel" and "Death to America."At another rally in Tehran, Haniyeh declared that Hamas would never recognize Israel's right to exist.
2/12/2012
don't know and don't care. i am not out to speculate.
So much for speculation...LOL
- 6 votes
#16 - Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:31 PM ESTEven I agree with that fact that Israel should not exist on occupied Palestinian land. They should follow in true spirit the UN mandate as other nations are required to do.
- 4 votes
I have to say Ms. Cyprah, I'm disappointed to see this article coming from you. Not that Israel isn't deserving of criticism, but "how may we insult you?" really?
perhaps if the discussion were more about facts and less about insults and epithets there would be more progress.
American Jews influence policy regarding Israel, for the same obvious reasons that Cuban's, Irish, Japanese, etc influence policy regarding their 'homeland'. You will not sway American Jews by insulting Israel. Facts though, thats different. A dispassionate display of death's, acreage change, poverty levels, etc without vitriol, or even an accompanying statement beyond "what does this tell you?" would be far more powerful method for achieving your goal of changing American policy.
I know because it was the facts that changes my mind, but I can not, will not, side with those who appear to be more interested in insulting Jews than helping Palestinians.
- 4 votes
#17 - Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:24 PM ESTdigicreation, your comments seem to indicate that you did not read the article. Here's a hint:
America's political discourse is not a garden party. We're factionalized, and we throw sharp elbows, especially online, where conservatives call liberals “moonbats,” and accuse them of hating America, and liberals lob back terms like “wingnut,” and accuse their counterparts of being morons.
In the debate over Israel and Palestine – and U.S. policy in the Middle East – one side has been disarmed, their derogatory labels rejected as singularly unacceptable, while their opponents remain free to use the coarsest insults against them with impunity.
By the way, Ms C. only seeded the article, and as standard practices left the original title intact.
- 5 votes
roy,
I read the article, and I know she seeded it, which implies tacit approval since it lacks a disclaimer.
the premise is false. calling an Israeli who urges war with Iran a warmonger, will not get you called a bigot. Saying the Palestinians are suffering in the Gaza embargo will not get you called a bigot. Saying the evil zionist Jews are trying to do X.. that will. Because its identifying the ethnicity as part of the issue.
Derogatory labels involving Jewish ethnicity are rejected for the same reason we reject racist talk against blacks in American politics... because we reject racism.
moonbat does not compare.
- 3 votes
I know she seeded it, which implies tacit approval since it lacks a disclaimer.
Digcreation, that is your perception and you are welcome to it. And why should any seed have a disclaimer? What for?
The only articles one can ever say that I approve of are the ones I WRITE, which are clear to see! I seed articles according to the perceived level of interest they carry, the amount of debate they might generate for both information and undestanding, and for deliberate variety. Please don't project your actions, fears or biases on to me.
- 9 votes
disclaimer as: I put this out there for debate, but I am not siding one way or another (perhaps worded better)
why? because you are presenting an editorial piece to an audience with your name attached. Essentially promoting its message by republishing it. If you don't believe what is being said, and just want to inform people, then you should separate yourself from it.. otherwise you are tacitly endorsing it. That is a fact of publications and promotions.
its not projecting, I work in publishing. the unwritten rules for this sort of thing exist because of the way audiences react to certain stimuli. If you put a message under your name with no other content, people will believe you support that message.
And frankly, I find it hard to believe that someone as communications savvy as yourself is not aware of that fact. Trying to spin it back on to me is a nice tactic, but does not change the fact that you republished this editorial which tries to excuse bigotry as political elbow throwing, under your NV brand name.
- 5 votes
this editorial which tries to excuse bigotry as political elbow throwing
I'd suggest the same as Roy, that you reread the seed, because you really have misrepresented it here but there may be another factor in play here - a squishy conflation between Jews and Israel and/or American Jews and Israeli-firsters.
someone said it better than I can:
...people are perfectly capable of understanding the difference between even strident political criticism of a government–the lifeblood of a democracy–and the wholesale condemnation of its people. In the case of Israel- the line between the government and the Jewish people as a whole is deliberately obscured and groups like the ADL never hesitate to use this confusion to their advantage, making virtually all criticism of Israel subject to potential condemnation as a form of anti-Jewish hatred.
This is the essence of Israeli exceptionalism which leads to the situation we have now- a country that claims all of the benefits of being a western style democracy with little of the accountability. (Aside from the increasingly permanent occupation of another people, Israel gives to Jews a whole range of special privileges including rights to land and political freedoms that non-Jews, 25% of the population, don’t have.)
It was Israel that decided to call itself the homeland of the Jewish people, to use the Magen David– the Star of David as its most prominent feature on its flag, to demand that other countries specifically recognize it as a Jewish state. So when understandably many people conflate the policies of the Israeli government with Jews (to my great sadness), groups like the ADL and the AJC and the Conference of Presidents of Jewish organizations turn around and call them anti-Semites for doing so. That’s the gift that keeps on giving and I can think of few more cynical ways to exploit real suffering and the good will of others.
link - http://www.muzzlewatch.com/2011/07/11/the-railroading-of-richard-falk/
- 6 votes
************************ Breaking News****************************************
An archaeologist found an ancient Biblical text which states:
"Israel shalt have many nuclear bombs, Israel too shall steal much Uranium from the West. Israel shall do as she pleases. Israel shalt never be questioned nor punished for wrongs, Never, never ever, ever, EVER. If thou question Israel or if thou even be the slightest bit critical of her policies, thou shall be deemed an anti-Semite and, as the LORD GOD, I will send a million locusts to devour thou eyes and the eyes of thou children, who will then lay eggs in the eyes of their children's children. Forever your hearts will burn, for eternity your skin shall boil for even suggesting Israel be held to the same standard that everyone else is expected to meet. And when you groan in pain, when your sheep lay diseased, and your childrens eyes are irritated and infected by the hatching of locust eggs, thou remember, thou brought GODS wrath upon thee self."
- 8 votes
#18 - Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:55 PM ESTbreaking news
Israel shall protect itself against a multitude of Arab Islamic terrorist nations that have tried unsuccessfully to destroy the Jewish people.
Israel shall deflect the onslaught of media propaganda daily against its country which is disproportionate to its size, its like Israel is looked through a magnify glass and the rest of humanity has a green card to do as it please.!!
- 3 votes
BREAKING NEWS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
what are you talking about?
- 7 votes
what are you talking about?
Apparently someone's been reading the Old Testament backwards.
- 5 votes
Any extreme and fundamentalism is a danger to freedom, but before ones goes off in a general pointing of the finger, they should do their own inventory and check your house.Criticism is a valuable aspect of maturity if done wisely.
- 4 votes
#19 - Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:03 PM ESTMR. Infrared
It all started when the united nations and the rest of the world including the Arab Nations granted Israel its statehood in 1948, the same day or next a multitude of Arab armies attacked Israel to drive the Jews into the sea and they lost !! if you dont beleive me just google the counbtless quotes by arab leaders how they will destroy the jews from the early part of the 20th century to present day.
since Israel got attacked the Arabs by losing forfeited any claim to the land you cant have your cake and eat it too!!
BESIDES IN 1967, ISRAEL BY DEFEATING ANOTHER ARAB ONSLAUGHT WON THE BATTLE AND THE OCCUPIED JEWISH LAND THAT EGYPT AND JORDAN WE OCCUPYING FOR 19 YEARS.
THE AREAS KNOWN AS JUDEA AND SAMARIA(or as the media likes to call them GAZA AND WEST BANK) WERE CAPTURED NOT FROM THE MANUFACTURED PEOPLE WE CALL THE ARAB PALESTINIANS BUT FROM EGYPT AND JORDAN!!
Its not like the Arabs don't have land they have collectively more land than all of America there is plenty of room for their Arab cousins to settle and isn't Jordan already 80% Palestinian and most of these Arabs in Judea and Samaria are really from Jordan?
You see there is only one country for the Jewish people and that's Israel the Arabs have over 20 don't ya think the Arab Islamists are getting a little too greedy here.
Ya Think!!!
- 3 votes
#20 - Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:10 AM ESTbesides in 1967, israel by defeating another arab onslaught won the battle and the occupied jewish land that egypt and jordan we occupying for 19 years.
except israel started the war
the areas known as judea and samaria(or as the media likes to call them gaza and west bank) were captured not from the manufactured people we call the arab palestinians but from egypt and jordan!!
this is not a terminator movie this is reality.
- 7 votes
....a "small" correction; please:
Jordan, which IS a Part of The traditional Territory of *Roman Palestine* (Rome Ruled ALL),
was GIVEN to the Arab Hashemite Muslims, who were The Arab Allies of the British during WWI.
The British, being the Winners of that World War,
Took The Entire territory from The Previous OWNERS, The Turks;
Turkey, *Losers* in the War, HAD Allied with the European Losers, Germany, and Austria/Hungary.
The Majority of The Newly Created Jordan, Created from HALF of The"Palestine Mandate",
Is Jordanian Hashemite Arab; the Minority are Jordanian Sunni Arab.
<><><><>
*PACT* of the THREE territories of The Traditional *Roman Palestine*.
The Kingdom of Jordan; majority Jordanian Hashemite, minority Jordanian Sunni
The State of Israel; majority Israeli Jews, minority Israeli Sunni, minority Israeli Christian
The State of Palestine (to BE); Majority Palestinian Sunni, minority Palestinian Jews
*PACT*
SWORN by ALL Three States and ALL Three Peoples
SWORN on the LIVES of their Children
Mutual Benefit, Mutual Respect, Mutual Defense
Inshallah
GOD's WILL
- 2 votes
Israel did not start any of its wars, when you close off the Suez canal that's war!!!,in 1948 1967, and 1973 when Israel got attacked in the yom kippur, that's war!!! ,Its war when Israel is the recipient of over 10000 rockets from the Iranian proxies hamas and Hezbollah.That's war!!!
Since the early part of last century to now Israel has been the recipient of 5 major wars and so many suicide bombings and terror its too much too list.
Welcome to reality not your fiction!!
- 3 votes
#21 - Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:22 AM ESTLOL are you going to claim Hitler didn't start World War II when he invaded Poland? LOL
you seem very fond of exclamation points so I will put them here so my comment would get through to you
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
- 8 votes
What does hitler invading poland have to do with anything i have said.
I think your exclamation point button is stuck!!
- 3 votes
ok i will explain it again. you are turning around who started the wars, an example would be saying hitler did not start world war II. your claim that israel did not start the war of 1967 is in the same logic as anyone claiming hitler did not start world war II.
- 6 votes
Israel did not start 1967, Egypt by closing off the suez is an act of war ,Israel did not start all the wars from the day it became a state in 1948 till present day.If Iran closes off the Hormuz than they will most likely get attacked i wonder why?
I mentioned earlier that in 1948 when the Arab Islamic armies attacked Israel that basically was the time the Arabs lost any claim to any land after that.
you start a war to destroy your enemy and lose you cant have your cake and eat it too!
- 3 votes
Israel did not start 1967, Egypt by closing off the suez is an act of war ,Israel did not start all the wars from the day it became a state in 1948 till present day.If Iran closes off the Hormuz than they will most likely get attacked i wonder why?
right and the flying spaghetti monster exists and it rains m&ms! WEEEE!
by that logic any nation that does anything within its own right but not for the benefit of another nation starts the war when they get attacked.
- 6 votes
Every nation does whats best for itself!!
I think my posts are very logical and truthful and if you disagree than instead of posting gibberish like flying spaghetti's post something intelligent.
- 4 votes
IF Iran "Blocks Entry" into the Strait of Hormuz, The West and The U.S. WILL
consider THAT, "An Act of War".
....and the West and the U.S., have SAID EXACTLY THAT!
Egypt, blocked The Suez Canal, AGAINST Israeli Shipping....
and THAT, IS an "An Act of War"!
Anybody here, want to BET, on, The "WHAT", that Will Happen,
IF Iran DOES Block the Strait of Hormuz!?
- 3 votes
Israel did not start any of its wars
What's that saying? "If you keep repeating a lie will it become more true"? or something like that... Israel is no Victim. They never were. They play on the worlds sympathy strings like a violin. Zionists have been doing that for over 100 years. They were willing to work with the Nazis. Stalin, and others. After all if there was a safe stable Russia (or Germany) for Jews, why would anyone need a "Jewish State"?? Israel was created by people who were willing to sacrifice. Sacrifice their own or anyone who gets in the way. It would be no big thing for Iran, Palestinians, USA or anyone else to be sacrificed for their specific agenda. After all, when you call yourself "The Jewish State", you are not actually looking out for those that don't meet club membership requirements...
- 9 votes
Israel is no Victim. They never were. They play on the worlds sympathy strings like a violin.
Yes, that has become increasingly clear down the years.
- 11 votes
Dakota Dean Ever hear of Operation Focus? If you had you would know Israel started the 1967 war. Israel also started the 1949, 1967 and 1982 wars. the 1973 war was initiated by Egypt and Syria, but they only invaded their own territory, the Sinai and Golan Heights, which was stolen and occupied by Israel.
- 8 votes
If Israel played the sympathy strings,which is so false its actually the other way around,you wouldn't have had 6 million Jews that died in the Holocaustand you wouldn't have hunting season on Israel by the worlds media in its daily tidbits of misinformation.
- 2 votes
#22 - Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:27 PM ESTWhen in doubt immediately fall back to "remember the holocaust." Check.
Media is out to get Israel... Check.
You forgot to distract us with claims that Muslims are worse...etc...etc.
The only thing that remains is to declare myself and anyone who opposes Israel to be a "naziwhowantstokillsixmillionjews"
- 9 votes
Screw Israel. We have been a friend to them and they in turn have shown that they are willing to screw the U.S. over and over again. They have become the very Nazis they incessantly whine about. They bully everyone around them using the U.S a "big brother" to back them up. As a result they have zero reason to negotiate. They are the brats of the Middle East.
Take away the weapons sales, take away the foreign aid, and cut economic ties with the jerks. Let them fend for themselves for a couple of decades. How exactly are they different from Iran except for the fact that they elect their fascist theocracy of a government and they have zero oil? If we sanction one we should sanction both.
I am truly sick and tired of hearing about and paying for the misery that little patch of dirt has created for the past six decades. Enough! Go do whatever nasty thing you're going to do. But do it alone.
And as for the antisemitism label, puhlease. Jews co opted the label for themselves effectively trying to erase the existence of myriad other groups of people who fall under the very same region/history/gene pool. People don't have a problem with Semitic people in general. Most of the time, the problem is with the same small subgroup of Jews from Israel. So let's call a spade a spade. Stop using the term antisemitic and start using the term anti Israeli. At least you will be accurate.
From Wikipedia..............The following is a list of ancient and modern Semitic peoples.
- Mandaeans
- Akkadians — migrated into Mesopotamia in the 4th millennium BC and amalgamate with non-Semitic Mesopotamian (Sumerian) populations into the Assyrians and Babylonians of the Late Bronze Age.[4][5] The remnants of these people became the modern Assyrian Christians.
- Eblaites — 23rd century BC
- Chaldeans — appeared in southern Mesopotamia circa 1000 BC
- Aramaeans — 16th to 8th century BC[6] / Akhlames (Ahlamu) 14th century BC[7]Remnants survive in modern Syria among theChristian population.
- Mhallami
- Ugarites, 14th to 12th centuries BC
- Suteans - 14th Century BC
- Canaanite language speaking nations of the early Iron Age:
- Amorites — 20th century BC
- Ammonites
- Edomites
- Amalekites
- Hebrews/Israelites — founded the nation of Israel which later split into the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah. The remnants of these people became the Jews and theSamaritans.
- Moabites
- Phoenicians — founded Mediterranean colonies including Carthage. The remnants of these people became the modern Maronites.
- Old South Arabian speaking peoples
- Sabaeans of Yemen — 9th to 1st c. BC
- Shebans
- Ubarites
- Maganites
- Ethio-Semitic speaking peoples
- Aksumites — 4th c. BC to 7th c. AD
- Arabs, Old North Arabian speaking Bedouins
- Gindibu's Arabs 9th c. BC
- Qadar tribe 7th century BC
- Lihyanites — 6th to 1st c. BC
- Thamud people — 2nd to 5th c. AD
- Ghassanids — 3rd to 7th c. AD
- Nabataeans — Mix of Aramaiac and Arabic speakers.
- Maltese
- 8 votes
They have become the very Nazis they incessantly whine about.
Thank you. My thoughts exactly, especially since their invasion of Lebanon. They seem to have lost the milk of human kindness; to have forgotten how they were treated at the hand of the Nazis.
After all, their blockade of Gaza, which has been virtually starving the Palestinians, and has treated them in an inhuman way, has been nothing short of shameful!
If we have been abused and maltreated by others, it really does not justify abusing others in turn.
- 11 votes
You would think the holocaust would have tempered their actions toward others. Instead they became that which they despised. Interesting choice.
- 6 votes
You would think the holocaust would have tempered their actions toward others. Instead they became that which they despised. Interesting choice.
Holy crap. Did you really just suggest that the Holocaust was a teachable event for Jewish people? That they should have learned from being systemically slaughtered due to the deranged beliefs of a mad man given almost unlimited power? Did you really just suggest that they somehow brought it upon themselves?
- 4 votes
Real Facts
Did you really just suggest that they somehow brought it upon themselves?
WTF were you reading? I suggested that having had it done to you (inhumane treatment at the hands of irrational fascists), one might be expected to learn from the experience and think twice before acting in the same manner towards others. And further, that failure to learn such a lesson makes you a hypocrite. I think Israel's neighbors might agree. Try again Fanboi.
- 6 votes
WTF were you reading?
You would think the holocaust would have tempered their actions toward others.
So yeah. The implication as I read it, was that their actions were bad beforehand, and the holocaust should have given them reason to change those actions. Maybe that is not what you meant, but that is how it sounded.
I suggested that having had it done to you (inhumane treatment at the hands of irrational fascists), one might be expected to learn from the experience and think twice before acting in the same manner towards others
First, comparing 6 million people being slaughtered and kept in concentration camps (one of the worst atrocities in history) to the current actions against the Palestinians (not even the worst offenses in the current Middle East) is extremely dishonest. Second, they are not the only guilty parties in this situation- the Palestinians certainly carry out their fair share of violence- whereas in Nazi Germany the battle was waged completely one directionally.
(Disclaimer: All humans rights violations are bad. I am not justifying any that Israel may commit, just saying that implying they are even close to as bad as the holocaust is ridiculous)
And further, that failure to learn such a lesson makes you a hypocrite.
I am neither a citizen of Israel, nor Jewish, so I am guessing that you are using a general "you" here. Secondly, it is in your opinion that they did not learn a lesson, and that there was a lesson to learn in the first place.
I think Israel's neighbors might agree.
Because we shouldn't take the opinion of people who express hatred towards Israel every chance they get with a grain of salt. And it's not like they're guilty of some of the worst violations of human rights on the planet currently either...
Try again Fanboi.
Try again, sans ad hominem.
- 3 votes
The implication as I read it, was that their actions were bad beforehand
Yes, because you wished to interpret it to suit your own narrow bias, but nothing like that was said by anyone.
It was a plain straightforward statement made by Mofongo that if we are abused, the very act of such brutal action should temper our own actions towards others because we KNOW what it's like to be brutalised, and that should increase our compassion, not make us brutal too.
I wonder why that was so difficult to comprehend! :o(
- 8 votes
Real Facts, try reading in context for a change. My original comment (23.2), which you seem determined to misinterpret, was a direct response to the last sentence of Ms Cyprah's comment (23.1) directly above mine. If you have trouble connecting those dots, there's not much I can do to help you.
As for comparing Israeli behavior to the behavior of Nazi's, no, it is not dishonest. It is completely valid. I wasn't equating the two. I wasn't commenting on the body count. You leapt off that cliff all by yourself.
No, the Israeli's have not racked up a body count north of 6 million. Yet! But what they are doing in the West Bank is exactly the same as what Germans did in the Ghettos of Warsaw.
- Round up the object of your hatred
- Confine them
- Take away their ability to earn a living
- Deprive men, women, and children of food and medicine
- Respond to any insurrection with overwhelming and brutal military force
- Humiliate them and deny them any self respect
So, will you wait to take issue with this behavior until the body count is above 6 million so that you feel comfortable comparing it to the holocaust? I guess things haven't changed much since 1939.
- 6 votes
- Round up the object of your hatred
- Confine them
- Take away their ability to earn a living
- Deprive men, women, and children of food and medicine
- Respond to any insurrection with overwhelming and brutal military force
- Humiliate them and deny them any self respect
Excellent comparison, Mofongo. I would like someone like Real Fact to justify these actions by the Israelis and explain how they are different from what happened in germany.
- 7 votes
Yes, because you wished to interpret it to suit your own narrow bias, but nothing like that was said by anyone.
In your opinion.
I wonder why that was so difficult to comprehend! :o(
Thing is, not everyone thinks exactly like you or Mofongo. Because I think differently, does not mean I am wrong, or that you are right. Is that hard to comprehend?
Round up the object of your hatred
Confine them
So you are saying Palestinian Arabs are confined to ghettos in Israel? Because I have found no where that suggests that they are being forced to live in one place, with something that denotes their heritage worn at all times. Seems to me that Palestinians can become Israeli citizens...
Take away their ability to earn a living
Yet the average Palestinian still manages to have a better standard of living than many of the neighboring arab countries somehow. Weird huh?
Deprive men, women, and children of food and medicine
Source? Even the anti Israel sites I found did not suggest that Palestinians could not get food.
Respond to any insurrection with overwhelming and brutal military force
Well gee, what are they supposed to do? Asking the Palestinians nicely to stop sure as hell has worked so well....
Humiliate them and deny them any self respect
Well, not sure about the humiliation piece, but no one can take your self respect unless you let them.
So, will you wait to take issue with this behavior until the body count is above 6 million so that you feel comfortable comparing it to the holocaust? I guess things haven't changed much since 1939.
Guess you didn't read this part then:
(Disclaimer: All humans rights violations are bad. I am not justifying any that Israel may commit, just saying that implying they are even close to as bad as the holocaust is ridiculous)
Excellent comparison, Mofongo. I would like someone like Real Fact to justify these actions by the Israelis and explain how they are different from what happened in germany.
No need to justify most of those things, since it all falls completely on how you perceive things. Your view on it is no more correct than mine. Both of you seem to think that Israel is solely to blame in this situation, while I believe that both parties are at fault.
- 3 votes
After looking at what I wrote in print, it really does seem like the Israelis chose to take a page right out of Heinrich Himmler's playbook. The similarities are too great for it to be pure chance.
- 6 votes
No, the Israeli's have not racked up a body count north of 6 million. Yet! But what they are doing in the West Bank is exactly the same as what Germans did in the Ghettos of Warsaw.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMGuYjt6CP8&feature=player_embedded This Gentleman says it very well :(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKMRgnXUwd8&feature=related That pretty much says it all too :(
You would think the holocaust would have tempered their actions toward others. Instead they became that which they despised. Interesting choice.
- 5
- !
#23.2 - Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:52 PM PST
Just like the cycle of violence within the family - where a child is raised in an abusive household, growing up vowing not to be like their parents and to prevent the same hardships from reaching their eventual family - only to end up being abusive themselves when the time comes to start their family, ending up in situations that bring only further hardship and ill-will.
http://www.pbs.org/kued/nosafeplace/studyg/domestic.html
What is the cycle of abuse?
A cycle of abuse occurs in some families. The family's life becomes a cycle of violence. Life begins to revolve around anticipating violence; coping with actual acts of violence; or recovering from the violence. Ironically, a family can become tremendously close in the recovery phase...
- 4 votes
Continuing from: http://www.pbs.org/kued/nosafeplace/studyg/domestic.html
How does domestic violence affect children?
Children are traumatized by witnessing violence in their family. The children in these homes are at high risk of being battered themselves by either the batterer or the victim. In addition, the long-term effects of witnessing such violence can create a cycle of violence that spans generations. We know that many men who are abusive witnessed their mothers being abused and many were victims of physical abuse themselves. We also know that women who come from a family in which they witnessed their mother being battered are more susceptible to developing what is called "battered women's syndrome." Such women may come to believe there is nothing they can do to get out of an abusive relationship. Both men and women who come from abusive homes may come to view the violence they have witnessed as normal, and carry it into their own relationships as adults.
- 4 votes
23.5 - comparing 6 million people being slaughtered and kept in concentration camps (one of the worst atrocities in history) to the current actions against the Palestinians (not even the worst offenses in the current Middle East) is extremely dishonest
What is it about making this comparison that is "dishonest"? Even within your question you, yourself, made comparisons. You have decided that the earlier circumstance was an atrocity because one party is legitimately considered as oppressed and victimized unfairly by another party.
In the current circumstance you deny, or at least minimize, the legitimacy of oppression to ultimately put both parties on some sort of equal footing for responsibility and so draw the conclusion that "I believe that both parties are at fault." in 23.10.
Certainly you are entitled to your opinion but logically you are denying the legitimacy of oppression experienced by Palestinians which you extended to those oppressed in earlier times. Then you assert some sort of basis for an equal responsibility in creating the current circumstance. Really, if someone told you that those slaughtered peoples in the earlier situation bore responsibility, or were at fault, for their own demise what would you think?
- 7 votes
What is it about making this comparison that is "dishonest"? Even within your question you, yourself, made comparisons. You have decided that the earlier circumstance was an atrocity because one party is legitimately considered as oppressed and victimized unfairly by another party.
OK, it's like comparing a serial killer who violently rapes and tortures his victims to someone who punches someone. Are both crimes? Yes. Are they even in the same ball park? Absolutely not.
In the current circumstance you deny, or at least minimize, the legitimacy of oppression to ultimately put both parties on some sort of equal footing for responsibility and so draw the conclusion that "I believe that both parties are at fault." in 23.10.
So you are denying that Hamas has specifically stated that they wish Israel to no longer exist, and that they would go about accomplishing this by killing Jews? Or that they launch rockets into Israeli civilian territory? Or that they send suicide bombers to schools, coffee shops, etc...? But even though they do these things, they have absolutely no fault in the matter?
Certainly you are entitled to your opinion
Gee thanks!
but logically you are denying the legitimacy of oppression experienced by Palestinians which you extended to those oppressed in earlier times.
Because it isn't even close to the same thing! They have had many opportunities to create their own country- the original plan in 1947 created both a Jewish and Palestinian state- which they have not taken advantage of ever. When did the Jews have that chance during the Holocaust?
Then you assert some sort of basis for an equal responsibility in creating the current circumstance.
Yeah, I suppose sending suicide bombers and missiles does not mean they have any responsibility... /sarc
Really, if someone told you that those slaughtered peoples in the earlier situation bore responsibility, or were at fault, for their own demise what would you think?
If they told me that the Jewish people were offered a chance to live in a country created specifically for them, but instead turned it down in order to fight and lose a war, and proceeded to fight that war long after they had lost it, they would certainly be in line for receiving less than pleasant treatment. Would that ever justify genocide? Absolutely not. Would it justify actions like those taken against the Palestinians currently? Yes, in my opinion.
Here is a question for you guys: Do you complain about the much worse violations of human rights seen in the other Middle Eastern countries, or just about how bad Israel treats the Palestinians? Because it seems like people complain most vociferously about Israel, while little gets said about other countries in the region.
- 2 votes
Thanks for asking. Yes, I have diverse interests - not just human rights either ; ) and you?
OK so when you said making a comparison was "dishonest" what you meant is that you reject some comparisons due to your evaluation of the scale of the 2 circumstances. I'll thank you for respecting that, in my honest opinion, comparisons can be made on the basis of similarities (while not denying the 2 are identical in some ways).
You justify a magnitude of persecution in the current circumstance that others find abhorrent. To do so you deny, or minimize, what is and has been suffered. IMO that makes you a "denier" in the same sense of the word as used when someone denies what was suffered in previous circumstances.
- 6 votes
OK, it's like comparing a serial killer who violently rapes and tortures his victims to someone who punches someone.
Dropping 1 ton bombs on civilian populations is equivalent to punching someone?
- 5 votes
Thanks for asking. Yes, I have diverse interests - not just human rights either ; ) and you?
Yes, I think they are all bad.
OK so when you said making a comparison was "dishonest" what you meant is that you reject some comparisons due to your evaluation of the scale of the 2 circumstances. I'll thank you for respecting that, in my honest opinion, comparisons can be made on the basis of similarities (while not denying the 2 are identical in some ways).
You are free to make whatever comparison you so choose, obviously. However that comparison is not necessarily accurate, which is the point I am trying to make.
You justify a magnitude of persecution in the current circumstance that others find abhorrent.
What level of "persecution" would you deem acceptable? Should Israel allow the Palestinians to do whatever they wish, even if that is killing innocent Israeli citizens?
To do so you deny, or minimize, what is and has been suffered.
I responded to your bullet points asking you to prove that things are actually as bad as you suggest, yet no proof was offered. From what I have seen, their suffering is quite minimal.
Dropping 1 ton bombs on civilian populations is equivalent to punching someone?
When compared to the systemic attempt to completely erase an entire race, and killing 6 million people in the process, yes, that would be the equivalent in my mind.
- 3 votes
That's the minimizing thang... (edit - this is a response to linc's 23.17)
- 5 votes
From what I have seen, their suffering is quite minimal.
and so some would minimize the suffering experienced in the earlier circumstance. Those persons who don't see it are called "deniers".
The qualities that you (choose to) see which lead to your forming the opinion that suffering is minimal is seen by others as tacit approval for continued persecution and suffering.
- 5 votes
and so some would minimize the suffering experienced in the earlier circumstance. Those persons who don't see it are called "deniers".
Exactly! However, if similar happened to their loved one they would not be trying to minimise it so much!
- 5 votes
When compared to the systemic attempt to completely erase an entire race, and killing 6 million people in the process, yes, that would be the equivalent in my mind.
Do you see the Holocaust as a free pass for murder?
I am half Cheerokee, but I could never imagine using the Genocide (Which was in the tens of millions) of my people as an excuse to impose misery upon another.
Just my perspective.
Peace.
- 6 votes
and so some would minimize the suffering experienced in the earlier circumstance. Those persons who don't see it are called "deniers".
The qualities that you (choose to) see which lead to your forming the opinion that suffering is minimal is seen by others as tacit approval for continued persecution and suffering.
So you are equating me to someone who denies the Holocaust happened? Please show me the evidence that shows Palestinians being rounded up, forced to live in ghettos, slaughtered by the millions, raped by their captors, starved to the brink of death, etc... I would love to see some completely objective proof of the suffering of the Palestinian people. As of yet, I have not been able to find any such things happening that would suggest that Palestinians are treated incredibly unfairly.
Exactly! However, if similar happened to their loved one they would not be trying to minimise it so much!
Or maybe people like me also think about what it must feel like to be an innocent Israeli citizen whose mother, or wife, or son, or brother was killed by a terrorist, and think about what should be done to prevent it from happening.
- 3 votes
Do you see the Holocaust as a free pass for murder?
What? No. Where did you get that idea from?
- 2 votes
So you are equating me to someone who denies the Holocaust happened?
yes
Please show me the evidence that shows Palestinians ... objective proof of the suffering of the Palestinian people
I could, as many others here could also, but what you choose to see will guide your estimations.
- 6 votes
What? No. Where did you get that idea from?
The same place you seem to get your 'interpretations' from? :o(
- 4 votes
Or maybe people like me also think about what it must feel like to be an innocent Israeli citizen whose mother, or wife, or son, or brother was killed by a terrorist, and think about what should be done to prevent it from happening.
Suffering is a Human condition, Palestinians suffer too.
As of yet, I have not been able to find any such things happening that would suggest that Palestinians are treated incredibly unfairly.
Please take a half an hour or so to view these links.
Be well.
Link
- 3 votes
yes
Well then. So much for civil discourse. Have a nice day.
The same place you seem to get your 'interpretations' from? :o(
You realize that adding an emoticon sad face to the end of a thinly veiled personal insult does not make it less offensive, correct?
Suffering is a Human condition, Palestinians suffer too.
But their suffering counts for more? Stop the suicide bombings and rocket attacks, and then there would be some ground to stand on if Israel continues to attack.
Please take a half an hour or so to view these links.
Link 1: Some dude talking for half an hour, no actual data shown, just him talking.
Link 2: No clue what they are saying. Kids apparently got shot? How do I know that the Israelis shot them?
Link 3: Why were the soldiers at this particular house? Did they feel threatened, and so waited to call in an ambulance? Did they wait to call in an ambulance? Would the woman actually have survived? "As is often the case, the story of abuse by soldiers could not be verified."
Any OBJECTIVE data to be presented? If I wanted to, I could provide a whole bunch of biased sources that blame everything on the Palestinians. Would that make it true?
realfacts just got pwnd.
LOL. Great input into the discussion Infrared!
- 3 votes
Well then. So much for civil discourse. Have a nice day.
what you want? you asked a yes or no question and i answered it.
uncivil would be calling you names and using vulgarity, i did not do this.
- 5 votes
I'm thinking RF would like to dismiss civil discourse on the basis of my labelling his position that of a denier. It's sorta like the seed and the Israeli-firster label eh?
- 4 votes
First link: The son of an Israeli General who planned 6 day war, and grand son of A founding father of Israel. You didn't watch the video, he cites many sources, most from the University Of Jerusalem .
2nd: Video of dead following "Operation Cast lead"-Documented, number of children killed:352
DCI-Palestine confirms the deaths of 352 children (names below) as a direct result of Israel's military offensive "Operation Cast Lead" in the Gaza Strip between 27 December 2008 and 18 January 2009.
Furthermore, DCI-Palestine confirms the deaths of five children caused indirectly by Operation Cast Lead: one baby born prematurely during a raid and unable to survive for long; three children killed by unexploded ordnance on 23 January; and one child who had undergone heart surgery a week before the offensive, was of weak constitution, and died in June unable to overcome health complications resulting from inhalation of white phosphorous fumes during Operation Cast Lead.
3rd: Illegal home searches, the Israeli military killed a mother, in front of her screaming children, by blowing her front door in. The video was shot by Israeli TV.
Can't get much more objective than that.
Peace to you.
- 5 votes
that's a lame way to call that, should be more intuitive and insulting.
- 4 votes
what you want? you asked a yes or no question and i answered it.
uncivil would be calling you names and using vulgarity, i did not do this.
You didn't answer the question. Meloney did. And his implication that I am akin to someone who denies the Holocaust is offensive to me- uncivil.
Lincoln:
I watched a fair portion of the video, and flipped through the rest. At no point did I witness anything other than him talking. If you have found a specific time in the video where there is video evidence given, not just him talking about things, I would be happy to rewatch it.
This would be the same Operation Cast Lead that was direct retaliation for the firing of a number of missiles into Israel? The same one where Hamas fighters hid in highly populated civilian areas, and are said to have put on civilian clothing? That Operation Cast Lead?
The last video showed the aftermath of the raid, not the raid itself. It also did not say that it was an illegal search of the home, not sure how you got that info.
Can't get much more objective than that.
Really? Good thing you aren't writing a peer reviewed paper using sources like that, because they would be shredded into teeny tiny little pieces in seconds.
that's a lame way to call that, should be more intuitive and insulting.
Because when people disagree with us our best discourse is to be as insulting as possible!
- 2 votes
Please show me the evidence that shows Palestinians ... objective proof of the suffering of the Palestinian people
Women die because they are held up at check points when dealing with severe health issues while on the way to hospitals.
Israel rains rockets down on Palestine directly into crowds purposefully.
Children in Palestine and the West Bank are starving to death
All because Israel was founded. Before Israel, such problems simply did not exist.
This is all very well documented.
- 7 votes
Not to mention the very well documented burning of Palestinian crops by Israel. Many of the crops were thousands of years mature, burned in a day so illegal settlements can be built in their place :(
BTW retaliation for the sake of retaliation is a war crime, Israel floating above a crowd of civilians in a helicopter and raining down on them with rockets is nothing but the workings of the Devil himself - even if Israel tries to say "but they did it first!". When more people die in one Israeli rocket attack than the number of people who have died in all of the rockets supposedly fired into Israel, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to tell who is clearly in the wrong.
- 6 votes
RF doesn't see these things by choice. Likewise RF (like the complaining Israeli-firsters of the seed) would choose to find insult in a label and reject further discussion. Leading this horse to water can not make him drink but it does suffice as a springboard for unrelated comments (ie hasbara).
- 7 votes
Operation Cast Lead was a blatant form of "Collective Punishment", which is Illegal under International Law and constitutes a War Crime, see 4th Geneva Convention.
Under the 1949 Geneva Conventions, collective punishments are a war crime. Article 33 of the Fourth Convention states: “No protected person may be punished for an offense he or she has not personally committed,” and “collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.” Israel, however, does not accept that the Fourth Geneva Convention or the Additional Protocols apply to the West Bank de jure, but says it abides by the humanitarian provisions without specifying what the humanitarian provisions are.
By collective punishment, the drafters of the Geneva Conventions had in mind the reprisal killings of World Wars I and II. In the First World War, Germans executed Belgian villagers in mass retribution for resistance activity. In World War II, Nazis carried out a form of collective punishment to suppress resistance. Entire villages or towns or districts were held responsible for any resistance activity that took place there. The conventions, to counter this, reiterated the principle of individual responsibility. The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) Commentary to the conventions states that parties to a conflict often would resort to “intimidatory measures to terrorize the population” in hopes of preventing hostile acts, but such practices “strike at guilty and innocent alike. They are opposed to all principles based on humanity and justice.”
22 days of relentless Israeli bombing on densely populated civilian centers resulted in the death of 352 children alone, not even counting innocent adults and enemy combatants.
Compare this with 23 Israelis killed by rockets or mortars in the 7 YEARS since 2001.
Real Fact-more Israeli's die from peanut allergies that from homemade Hamas rockets.
Are you beginning to see how disproportionate this all is?
And what is the excuse Israeli leadership puts forth?:
"It is tragic that many Palestinians who are not directly involved in terrorism are suffering as a result of the actions of their leaders. While no one wants to see any noncombatants harmed, it is important to acknowledge that all Palestinians in Gaza bear some responsibility for their current predicament. After all, they voted to empower Hamas in an election in which they knew the organization's platform called for the destruction of Israel and the use of terrorism to achieve its aims."
They say Palestinian children must pay the price for their parents voting habits?
- 6 votes
#23.5
comparing 6 million people being slaughtered and kept in concentration camps (one of the worst atrocities in history)
So you only count the Jewish prisoners that got murdered in the camps, what about the other 6-8 million people that was murdered in the Nazi camps?
12-14 million people was murdered in the Nazi Camps but for some reason we only hear about the Jewish prisoners, and that is REAL FACTS so get your facts straight.
- 7 votes
Israeli War Crimes & Crimes Against Humanity indeed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKMRgnXUwd8&feature=related
- 5 votes
Check out some of the explosions!?! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwmoS8lhk1A
- 5 votes
Considering the entire @!$%#ing seed has about Jewish people, and most specifically in this thread about the relation of the Holocaust to the current happenings in Israel.
First of, if the seed and it's subject is so terrible and bad that you have to use obscene language to describe it, what are you still doing here?
Or were you just trying to look smart by smarmily pointing out something you thought was being overlooked?
No just pointing out the REAL FACTS, that certain people tend to forget, that just as many if not more people than the Jews were victims of the Nazi Holocaust, strangely enough their surviving relatives never got a "Guilt Card" without limit like the Jews did.
- 5 votes
No just pointing out the REAL FACTS, that certain people tend to forget, that just as many if not more people than the Jews were victims of the Nazi Holocaust, strangely enough their surviving relatives never got a "Guilt Card" without limit like the Jews did.
Oho! I see what you did there! Clever fellow! You used my name in a slightly derogatory manner! Slapping my knee at the cleverness!
I'm not sure who here you are accusing of forgetting the other people who died in the Holocaust- they were not mentioned because it was not relevant to the discussion. Secondly, what is this Guilt Card you speak of? I have already condemned any real violations committed by Israel, and will continue to condemn them, though I seem to be alone in condemning the things done by the Palestinians here.
- 2 votes
Real Facts, whenever people resort to obscene language I assume their vocabulary is either pretty limited, or they are losing the argument. Either way, in case you haven't noticed, this is MY column and you are a guest on it.
With my standards, obscenity and I just don't sit well together somehow. It immediately takes the focus off your content and puts it on the form. This means your point is lost in the bid to be disrespectful, hence the deletion.
However, thank you for your contribution so far. I have been enjoying the spirited responses up to that point.
- 8 votes
Mr.stolz18
If you want to know who was working with Hitler and the Nazis its all crystal clear in front of your eyes on google.
Just type in mufti- Armin AL Hussein
- 2 votes
#24 - Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:30 PM ESTIf you want to know who was working with Hitler and the Nazis..
So was the Lehi.
I don't care one wit who he worked with. We all work with someone... If anything it shows that the Nazis didn't have as much "discrimination" as some would have us believe. Many black African soldiers as well as your Bosnian or Croatian Muslim SS.
Karl von Krempler knew how to put together some good units. Died Peacefully on April 17th 1972 in Salzburg.
- 6 votes
If you want to know who was working with Hitler and the Nazis its all crystal clear in front of your eyes on google.
Don't forget some of the French, and some of the Poles, and the Russians (for a time), and most of the Germans. And the Italians and the Spanish. Oh, we also had a few wealthy industrialists in America who were Nazi Germany fans also.
Armin AL Hussein
I suppose you think he had something to do with the round up and murder of European Jews?
- 6 votes
Yeah, oddly enough, Henry Ford had some rather disturbing business and ideological links to Nazi Germany. Weirdness you don't hear about frequently. Ol Hank apparently didn't have all his screws fully tightened when he came off the assembly line.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Ford
In Germany, Ford's anti-Jewish articles from The Dearborn Independent were issued in four volumes, cumulatively titled The International Jew, the World's Foremost Problem published by Theodor Fritsch, founder of several anti-semitic parties and a member of the Reichstag. In a letter from 1924, Heinrich Himmler described Ford as "one of our most valuable, important, and witty fighters."[59] Ford is the only American mentioned in Mein Kampf.[citation needed] Speaking in 1931 to a Detroit News reporter, Hitler said he regarded Ford as his "inspiration", explaining his reason for keeping Ford's life-size portrait next to his desk.[60] Steven Watts wrote that Hitler "revered" Ford, proclaiming that "I shall do my best to put his theories into practice in Germany," and modeling the Volkswagen, the people's car, on the model T.[61]
- 4 votes
Ok, let's also look at Nazi-Zionist collaboration.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stern_Gang#Contact_with_Nazi_Germany
In 1940, Lehi proposed intervening in World War II on the side of Nazi Germany. It offered assistance in transferring the Jews of Europe to Palestine, in return for Germany's help in expelling Britain from Mandatory Palestine. Late in 1940, Lehi representative Naftali Lubenchik went to Beirut to meet German official Werner Otto von Hentig (who also was involved with the Haavara or Transfer Agreement, which had been transferring German Jews and their funds to Palestine since 1933). Lubenchik told von Hentig that Lehi had not yet revealed its full power and that they were capable of organizing a whole range of anti-British operations.
On the assumption that the destruction of Britain was the Germans' top objective, the organization offered cooperation in the following terms. Lehi would support sabotage and espionage operations in the Middle East and in eastern Europe anywhere where they had cells. Germany would recognize an independent Jewish state in Palestine/Eretz Israel, and all Jews leaving their homes in Europe, by their own will or because of government injunctions, could enter Palestine with no restriction of numbers. Stern also proposed to recruit some 40,000 Jews from occupied Europe to invade Palestine with German support to oust the British.[32]
On 11 January 1941, Vice Admiral Ralf von der Marwitz, the German Naval attaché in Turkey, filed a report (the "Ankara document") conveying an offer by Lehi to "actively take part in the war on Germany's side" in return for German support for "the establishment of the historic Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis, bound by a treaty with the German Reich."[33][34]
- 8 votes
Should we mention a certain Pope Pius who also made deals with the fascists?
- 7 votes
We could also mention the Zionist movements refusing the offer to buy the freedom of Jewish prisoners from Nazi Camps.
- 5 votes
We could also mention the Zionist movements refusing the offer to buy the freedom of Jewish prisoners from Nazi Camps.
Please delete, Bubblegum effect
- 2 votes
Armin AL Hussein
I suppose you think he had something to do with the round up and murder of European Jews?
NOT AT ALL, HE INFUSED NAZISM WITH ISLAM A WONDEFUL COMBO.
- 2 votes
#25 - Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:13 PM ESTmork1from1ork
Comment collapsed by the community
Comment collapsed by the communityMork, I do not have the answer to everything and, if you are going to join in the discussion, please use a simple accepted form of writing we can all comprehend, and stick to the topic at hand.
Thank you!
- 10 votes
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