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MS CYPRAH

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Obama and Michelle Portrayed as Terrorists on the New Yorker cover: Is This Racist or Wot?

Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:17 AM EDT
politics, white-house, media, mccain, barack, terrorist, michelle-obama, racist, new-yorker
By Ms CYPRAH
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There is an awful lot wrong with the latest cover of the New Yorker which portrays the Obamas as terrorists residing in the White House and paying homage to Osama bin Laden while the American flag burns ominously in the cosy looking hearth. The fact that it was placed on their front cover was meant to be sensationalist and designed to attract maximum attention. Trying to bolster credibility, the New Yorker's press release said, in the most blase manner, that its cover: "satirizes the use of scare tactics and misinformation in the Presidential election to derail Barack Obama's campaign", just like the scare tactics and misinformation they were using themselves, I suppose. They forgot to add that it was highly offensive, derogatory, biased and incredibly racist, unless we see a matching portrayal of John McCain and Cindy in una-bomber attire shortly, for example. After all, he was White.

The main question to ask about that cover is this one: Had the Obamas not been Black, would they have been portrayed in that offensive and derogatory way, no matter what point was being debated? Well, as I have yet to see a White politician in this election being presented in those openly racist terms, one has to assume that, no, they would not. In fact, John McCain appears to have been treated with a lot of dignity and respect, even when he is being criticised, which is what all politicians are entitled to, regardless of their colour. So one has to ask if this is the modern day revival of Jim Crow and symbolic media lynchings of Black public figures when fear stalks racist mindsets?

It is a very disturbing caricature primarily for two reasons:
First, the divisive message it gives out to all Americans that being Black, per se, is anti-American, anti security and pro-terrorist. That Black people are not bona-fide American citizens who also fear for their own safety, but are simply waiting to destroy the world of White America in the form of a pro-terrorist Black president. That is a very powerful, negative and racist message, as though only a White politician or president would be anti-terrorist.

Second, the one thing all Americans, and those watching keenly internationally, would hope for(speaking personally as a Brit and a great admirer of that country), is: whatever the outcome of this historic election, that it was fought fairly and squarely by all concerned, with all politicians treated equally.

But how is this fair to Obama and his wife? Two highly intelligent, qualified professionals who have given a lot to their communities, being depicted to the public in such fearful terms simply because of their colour? All the New Yorker has proven is that when the chips are down, racism lurks menacingly under the media psyche, a biased perspective that is prepared to use any cowardly means at their disposal to instill fear in the minds of ordinary Americans who simply desire a free choice of candidates without being influenced arbitrarily.

As to this cartoon being 'satire', that's the real laugh. It is completely out of context, it certainly does not make anyone laugh, except the racists who might agree with it, and it is depicting a threatening situation which not many Americans, White or Black, would wish to laugh at or find remotely funny. Satire is not about cherry picking certain people because of their colour - and certainly not a possible president of the United States - and using them as the butt of racist jokes. That is well below the belt and a very serious matter.

In reply to a concerned Obama supporter who expressed his hurt and distress, the cartoonist Barry Blitt said his drawing was "intended to appear preposterous and ridiculous". He added, "I cannot actually believe this cartoon, which was meant to mock the bigots and xenophobes who spread lies, will actually give them license."

Perhaps if it were placed somewhere else in the magazine with an appropriate article, in context, one could accept that amazing degree of naivete. But that response beggars belief.

Shame on the New Yorker for stooping to such gutter politics. Is it time for their readers and advertisers to ask if that is the kind of magazine they wish to support? It has certainly crossed an ethical line. One hopes that members of their audience and sponsors, who were offended by that blatant racist image, one which tarred all articulate Black people with the same innuendoes, will gradually decide what else to do with their hard earned cash when they have considered the implications and confronted that offensive racism for themselves.

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Ms CYPRAH

As to this cartoon being 'satire', that's the real laugh. It is completely out of context, it certainly does not make anyone laugh, except the racists who might agree with it, and it is depicting a threatening situation which not many Americans, White or Black, would wish to laugh at or find remotely funny.

  • 11 votes
#1 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:19 AM EDT
JohnRussell

Is This Racist or Wot?

No.

  • 13 votes
#1.1 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:37 AM EDT
O-K

Ms CYPRAH It was racist and disgusting. I also wrote on this and said much the same as you said here.
Very good article and I agree with you on this.

  • 5 votes
#1.2 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:26 PM EDT
QACoach

@ Ms Cyprah...

Shame on the New Yorker for stooping to such gutter politics

This is the understatement of the year!!

This kind of "satire" sounds like what slave owners would promote. Does that mean that the New Yorker management is run by "people" (and I use the term loosely) who would promote slavery and class separation. Hmmm...probably!

  • 6 votes
#1.3 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:47 PM EDT
Ms CYPRAH

Thanks for dropping by, O-K. I will have a read of yours too. The more people take this up and express their disgust, the more we can all unite against such nonsense, White and Black together.

QACoach

Does that mean that the New Yorker management is run by "people" (and I use the term loosely) who would promote slavery and class separation.

You are so right on this comments because that is what the New Yorker's action boils down to. Would they happily treat any other subject related to Black people in that manner for so called 'satire'?

  • 3 votes
#1.4 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:55 PM EDT
wmolaw

Ms. Cyprah:

Was it racist? I don't think so. Was it stupid?

I don't know. This sort of issue is best aired, let out of the box, discussed, ranted about, raved about.

Would they happily treat any other subject related to Black people in that manner for so called 'satire'?

Maybe, when it can be treated satirically, we will have moved forward a few steps.

What do you think?

  • 4 votes
#1.5 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:16 PM EDT
David L

I agree that it was the intent to sarcastically comment on the ridiculous Right Wing claims such as those given out implicitly by Fox News, and others. If it had been set inside the article about "Politics of Fear", it would have raised eyebrows, but they would have got away with it. The whole point of the article inside was to point out the stupidity of "Politics of Fear", and how ridiculous it has become.

However to put it on the front cover where the majority of people would not even read the article, and therefore take it at face value, was incredibly stupid, and will back fire on the Marketing Director, let alone the Editor who should have taken a more sensible real world view on its impact and left it with the article where it belongs.

So satire in the context of the article, where it should have been printed, Yes. Satire on the front page, absolutely not, it was bound to cause this fuss, its not a satirical magazine, and therefore as a front cover it was incredibly stupid. I can imagine this working on the cover of the days of "Private Eye", but never in a Zillion years on the cover of the New Yorker, dam stupid.

  • 6 votes
#1.6 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:24 PM EDT
Ms CYPRAH

Maybe, when it can be treated satirically, we will have moved forward a few steps.

I have to agree with that, wmolaw. Perhaps it shows the raw sensitivity to race issues that are sill underlying in society.

  • 4 votes
#1.7 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:45 PM EDT
Ms CYPRAH

So satire in the context of the article, where it should have been printed, Yes. Satire on the front page, absolutely not, it was bound to cause this fuss, its not a satirical magazine, and therefore as a front cover it was incredibly stupid.

Thank you, David, beautifully and aptly put. That action mainly gave out the wrong message instead of reinforcing whatever point they were trying to make.

  • 2 votes
#1.8 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:48 PM EDT
wmolaw

David:

Clear you don't know the New Yorker.

Take a look at their past covers.

New Yorker Cover Pages

Satire on the cover of the New Yorker? Please, tell me it ain't so!

Come on, the New Yorker's cover is known for hard biting satire.

  • 3 votes
#1.9 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:49 PM EDT
Dolores M. Bernal

Hi Ms. Cyprah. From what I understand, the NYorker is a very liberal magazine. Tha article that went with that cover is actually a good article about Obama. I don't believe that it was meant to be an act of racism by the editors, it was just a process of poor decision making on their part. They should have run the idea by their editorial staff and perhaps the NAACP just to be on the safe side. I'm sure they're going to learn to be more careful in the fufure.

  • 3 votes
#1.10 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:50 PM EDT
Gumwars

I think it was very hard edged satire, not meant to insult Obama, but rather pointed directly at those that have made some incredible claims to where he stands regarding issues of patriotism, religion, terrorism and race.

The New Yorker pushed the threshold of what we find acceptable. They used the First Amendment in exactly the fashion our media should use it. Make us feel uncomfortable. Make us challenge the line of politically correct. Make us look hard in the mirror and swallow the bitter pill.

Bravo, New Yorker.

  • 7 votes
#1.11 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 6:09 PM EDT
greenguy

Pretty much. I've been reading The New Yorker for years. They had lots of offensive and silly covers. This one pissed some people off. Satirizing the extent of the rumor mill aimed at the Obama's is entirely legitimate. I liked the Obama cover and look forward to all the great articles!

  • 4 votes
#1.12 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:22 PM EDT
David L

wmolaw
I do know the New Yorker. Its rather like beauty, satire is in the eye of the beholder, I guess. Compared to many of the Greats in Satirical Magazines, the New Yorker is not heavily so, its frankly mild by comparison. I took a look at the covers on your link. They reinforced my views even more, this one is so out of line with their usual ones it really does invite - and got - trouble.
I have no issue with the "cartoon", as a Satirical cartoon it was up there with the best of them, there is no doubt of that, will probably go down as one of their best over time. It was just incredibly stupid to put it on the front page at this point in time. It was perfect for the article and should have stayed there. Someone got a little too Liberal and fanciful.

  • 2 votes
#1.13 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:02 PM EDT
Bill Harrison

By both campaigns and the media going bat@!$%# over a cover on a magazine of fashionable liberal elite opinion (despite the New Yorker's old claims for rigorous fact-checking under the legendary founder Harold Ross and his successor William Shawn (father of the actor Wallace Shawn) they're drawing more focus to this than would be warranted given the fact that the magazine is not widely read except by the "smart" set.

And if anyone actually takes the time to read Ryan Lizza's excellent underlying piece on Obama's rise to power in Chicago they will come to realize what I (and others) have been saying for some time namely rather than being a courageous lone warrior fighting against the insiders and entrenched interests he has rather made his way by doing what such politicians do -- "going along to get along". This should give supporters (as have been voiced over his switching positions both on the DC gun law and immunity for the telecom companies under the new FISA law) cause to question precisely what are his core beliefs and more importantly will he be willing to "refine" those core beliefs into mush to win an election and further his own career:

Perhaps the greatest misconception about Barack Obama is that he is some sort of anti-establishment revolutionary. Rather, every stage of his political career has been marked by an eagerness to accommodate himself to existing institutions rather than tear them down or replace them.

He campaigns on reforming a broken political process, yet he has always played politics by the rules as they exist, not as he would like them to exist. He runs as an outsider, but he has succeeded by mastering the inside game. He is ideologically a man of the left, but at times he has been genuinely deferential to core philosophical insights of the right.

Now there is not anything necessarily wrong about this. Politics is often the art of the compromise. Where big questions arise is when politicians are willing to throw away a good portion of their core beliefs in order to win reelection as did Bill Clinton in signing the welfare reform bill in '96 whose more onerous provisions earned him the scorn of that noted maverick but determined old-style liberal -- Pat Moynihan. Politicians who try to be all things to all people in order to get elected or reelected may be successful in that task but like Clinton their lasting legacy may be ephemeral.

  • 4 votes
#1.14 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:38 PM EDT
Robert Blevins - AB of Seattle

Gumwars says, in part:

'I think it was very hard edged satire, not meant to insult Obama, but rather pointed directly at those that have made some incredible claims to where he stands regarding issues of patriotism, religion, terrorism and race.'

Time to check into the Reality Hotel, Gumwars.

There was NO caption. There was no hint that the cover was satirical.
If the New Yorker had bothered with some type of caption, then you could MAYBE write it off as bad taste. One Newsvine user, Mars 323, suggested 'A Republican Wet-Dream' as a possibility. But since they didn't bother with one, all it means is that somebody high up on the New Yorker editorial staff is a closet racist.

They packed everything un-American they could into that picture. It doesn't look like a New Yorker cover. It looks like it was cranked out by the boys at Mad Magazine. It's ridiculous, insulting, and completely without merit.

Latest reports indicate that people in the Long Island area of New York (NYM has heavy readership there) are totally appalled and disgusted. Many are canceling their subscriptions.

I've edited a couple of magazines, not as big as the once-great New Yorker of course, and I am the managing editor of one right now. I would NEVER consider printing up a cover like that without marking it somehow as SATIRE. It's irresponsible and Long Island isn't the ONLY place where people are going to start canceling their subscriptions.

  • 5 votes
#1.15 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:30 AM EDT
angela593

Yu write to the point. How old is Blitt? The over 40's do not take humor like this lightly.
The picture tells lies. Lies that feed the fears that ignorance breeds.

  • 1 vote
#1.16 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:38 AM EDT
Nick23

Ah, hahahahahah, hahahahaha, you'll have to forgive me, but you are one of the funniest women I have ever read an article by. You say that there have been no cartoons like this against any white politicians. Well, ma'am, you are wrong. You see, as much as you would like to forget it, Barack Hussein Obama is only half black, and the other half you ask? Well, I'm sure you know the answer. His daddy did the unspeakable and married a white women! The audacity! So, doesn't this in essence make him also half white? But in matters of playing the race card, I guess only the black half matters, because in all honesty he does look on the outside at least, more black than white. Funny that black people disown Condoleeza and Colin Powell, and when people make fun of them nothing is said. But when you make fun of a man that is only half black, but attends a radical black church, the tide is turned. You are the one making racist comments here, so wake up. Affirmative action is dead, and only goes against the very thing it was setup to solve, discrimination based on the color of your skin, sex, etc. Stop playing the race card, and real equality will be achieved much sooner.

  • 1 vote
#1.17 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:13 AM EDT
Gumwars

There was NO caption. There was no hint that the cover was satirical. If the New Yorker had bothered with some type of caption, then you could MAYBE write it off as bad taste. One Newsvine user, Mars 323, suggested 'A Republican Wet-Dream' as a possibility. But since they didn't bother with one, all it means is that somebody high up on the New Yorker editorial staff is a closet racist.

RB, the blatant nature of that cover not only implies satire, it requires it for the reasons you mention. The New Yorker has pushed the threshold before, and this is not uncommon.

  • 1 vote
#1.18 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:12 AM EDT
query

As a McCain supporter all I can say is, thanks New Yorker for this image that backfired and instead of having people see it as satire, they'll treat it as an ominous warning.

Remember most people are idiots who take things at face value so they'll see it as a scary thing to have Obama in the White House. I couldn't care less if they made Obama look like a Ruskie or a space invader, whatever helps McCain get elected is fine by me. :)

ps-notice the "racist anti-Obama attack" came from the left (liberals) instead of the right (republicans) despite Obama's McCarthy-like smear suggesting it'd come from conservatives. Just like the Jesse Jackson and Ralph Nader slaps he got.

  • 3 votes
#1.19 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:45 PM EDT
wmolaw

Ms. Cyprah:

Have you seen this cover of National Review?

McCain Cover

Or is is just Obama?

I tell you, folks need to get a grip.

  • 3 votes
#1.20 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:32 PM EDT
Ms CYPRAH

I don't believe that it was meant to be an act of racism by the editors, it was just a process of poor decision making on their part.

I agree with you, Dolores, but a picture is very powerful in telling a story without words, giving a silent message and often an unintended one too!

  • 1 vote
#1.21 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:35 PM EDT
Ms CYPRAH

Remember most people are idiots who take things at face value so they'll see it as a scary thing to have Obama in the White House.

Thanks you for this, query, which emphasises the point I was trying to make. In fact, a new seed, The Power of Images really says it all about the effect of this picture already.

In the same way, the New Yorker cover, now being displayed endlessly on cable TV, speaks louder than any efforts by Obama supporters to stop the smears (though it doesn't help that barackobama.com makes it hard to navigate to the truth-squading). As the author Drew Weston has shown, negative images burn their way into the consciousness of voters in ways that cannot be erased by facts. With one visual move, the magazine undid months of pro-Obama coverage in its pages.

As Robert said, there was no caption to diffuse the effect of the image and give a signal what the New Yorker was really doing. Moreover, for maximum satirical effect, the picture should have been placed with its article. If it was deliberately put on the front without any caption, someone knew what they were doing which I reiterate again, was racist, whether intentional or not.

  • 1 vote
#1.22 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:48 PM EDT
Ms CYPRAH

Have you seen this cover of National Review?

McCain Cover

Or is is just Obama?

Wmolaw, thanks for that, which I would regard as satire. Spot the blatant difference between the two covers!

I rest my case.

Query:

As a McCain supporter all I can say is, thanks New Yorker for this image that backfired and instead of having people see it as satire, they'll treat it as an ominous warning.

They have already started doing that, apparently!

  • 1 vote
#1.23 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:50 PM EDT
Sgt. IronHorse

It really doesn't matter who is running for office. It matters not their age, race, color, gender, creed, religion, sexual orientation. There WILL be people that WILL find a soft spot and just do their dead-lever best to romp on it! Did anyone ever notice how much sport was made of Reagan? Did anyone ever notice how much sport was made of Bush? Am I the only one that's ever seen the pictures of George W. transformed into Alfred E. Newman? They did it to Carter and Slick Willy too. If it's "all in good fun" for one then why isn't it good for all? Come on now people let's pull our big girl panties, dust off our hats and get back to the REAL issues at hand! We have a nation to run.
Creator's Blessing On Y'all!
Nea'ese, IronHorse*

  • 2 votes
#1.24 - Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:03 PM EDT
Ms CYPRAH

If it's "all in good fun" for one then why isn't it good for all?

Good question here, Sgt Ironhorse, except that America isn't operating from a level playing field. In this case it is about using the politics of fear to furthe their commercial ends. Portrayal of the Obamas as terrorists is akin to depicting Bush or the Jews as Hitler. Would every White person agreeing with this cover be happy with that?

  • 1 vote
#1.25 - Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:57 PM EDT
wmolaw

Ms. Cyprah:

Goodness, Bush has been depicted as Hitler so many times it's not even funny.

And he as (contradictorily) been depicted as a slave to jewish/Israeli interests.

Hell, I think he's been depicted as everything.

Tell me, did you hear this type of outrage from his supporters, the media?

  • 1 vote
#1.26 - Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:24 AM EDT
Sgt. IronHorse

Ma'am, respectfully, this has already been done and just like this New Yorker cover, we laughed it off as satire as well. No harm, no foul. It didn't ruin our day.

  • 2 votes
#1.27 - Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:04 AM EDT
Ms CYPRAH

Tell me, did you hear this type of outrage from his supporters, the media?

No, perhaps because he already is the sitting president and part of the ruling group. It is not the same as fighting as a candidate from a minority group with a history of discrimination. But point taken.

  • 2 votes
#1.28 - Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:39 PM EDT
Reply
SepticSkeptic

incredibly racist

I agree that it's un-funny...but you're going to have to explain the racism angle...they're being portrayed as Al Qaeda terrorists, not Black Panther terrorists. I see where religion comes in, but not race. His alleged Islamic faith is being attacked here, not his color.

  • 11 votes
#2 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:41 AM EDT
Ms CYPRAH

I have to disagree with you here. BOTH of them are included. You cannot disassociate colour from the symbolism here. That would be naive and fanciful and explains why racism is still entrenched in America as everyone continually plays ostriches to racist acts while trying, in a futile manner, to explain them away.

  • 5 votes
#2.1 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:06 AM EDT
SepticSkeptic

Are you saying that all islamic terrorists are black? Islam is a global religion, there are Muslims in every country, wearing every color of skin. How is portaying him as a Muslim racist?

Or are you saying that any attack on a black man is racism, even if the attack has nothing to do with the color of his skin? If I vote against Obama for the same reasons that I voted against Kerry (uh, they're Democrats, and I'm a Republican), am I still racist?

You say that you disagree with me. Please, I ask you again. Explain how the color of his skin is linked to the "Obama is a Muslim terrorist" message. Don't just say it is, explain how. I really don't see it.

  • 11 votes
#2.2 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:33 AM EDT
Ms CYPRAH

Are you saying that all islamic terrorists are black? Islam is a global religion, there are Muslims in every country, wearing every color of skin. How is portaying him as a Muslim racist?

Not at all, and I am fully aware of the diversity of the Muslim religion. I reiterate again that until they portray any of the other White politicians in this manner, then they are being racist. Obama is NOT Muslim, which makes your argument even more questionable as it cannot even be justified on religious grounds.

  • 3 votes
#2.3 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:53 AM EDT
SepticSkeptic

I'm not saying he's muslim, I'm saying he's being portrayed as muslim. Show me a white politician with the middle name "Hussein" who comes from a muslim family, and I'll show you a white politician portrayed as an Al Qaeda terrorist on the cover of New Yorker.

until they portray any of the other White politicians in this manner

How about portraying Bush as Nero? The guy who burned down the poor neighborhoods of his own capital city to make room for new construction, then blamed the Christians?

How about the one with Bush and Cheney as the co-stars of Brokeback Mountain? I'm not sure if that's more insulting to a sitting president or to gay people...

The point is, New Yorker prints horrible covers about white people, too. Nobody's running around screaming that it's racist and they better show two black gay cowboys on the cover next month.

  • 13 votes
#2.4 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:13 AM EDT
Samuel Adams

Normally I am one to call out racism Ms. Cyprah, but I disagre with you. First of all, its impossible in the US to portray whites in a racist manner. There really aren't any stereotypes, and since whites have all the power, there wouldn't be anything to accomplish. And second, displaying McCain in a 'racist manner' just would not make sense anyway. This satire plays on the fact that rumors of Obama being a muslim do exist, and while I agree that it is in bad taste, I disagree that "until they portray any of the other White politicians in this manner, then they are being racist." There is no way they can redeem themselves for, what I consider, this distastful cover. Creating a cover mocking Mccain's whiteness would only further hurt their reputation and confuse readers, because there have been no fears about McCain being a white man. Your call for revenge is bizzare and a little unerving, for it hurts the anti-racism movement in general.
I would be equally offended if McCain was depicted as being a sick decaying man in a wheelchair or something, which would be an ageist picture playing on liberal's remarks on his age.

  • 11 votes
#2.5 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:16 AM EDT
Ms CYPRAH

Creating a cover mocking Mccain's whiteness would only further hurt their reputation and confuse readers, because there have been no fears about McCain being a white man.

You hit the nail on the head with that one, Samuel and a terrible indictment of American society. And just because Obama does not enjoy the privilege of being white, he is fair game. No further comment necessary from me.

  • 4 votes
#2.6 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:19 AM EDT
Mars313

First of all, its impossible in the US to portray whites in a racist manner.

That's not true. If a black publication did a cover with John McCain in a Klan outfit, I think "racism!" would be claimed from the mountain tops.

  • 6 votes
#2.7 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:14 AM EDT
Brian Ford

It would -- but it's not a good comparison. If the dominant "talking point" about McCain were that he was a closet member of the KKK, if that conversation/representation flourished with pundits, blogs and in the general consensus of a shockingly large percentage of Americans, it would be perfectly cromulent to post a satirical cover of McCain as a member of the KKK, as part of a story on the idiocy in thinking that this were the case

And, I'd support it then, just as I support this illustration.

  • 5 votes
#2.8 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:12 PM EDT
katrix

The editor of the New Yorker had this to say:

"The burning flag, the nationalist-radical and Islamic outfits, the fist-bump, the portrait on the wall - all of them echo one attack or another. Satire is part of what we do, and it is meant to bring things out into the open, to hold up a mirror to the absurd. And that's the spirit of this cover," Remnick said.

  • 4 votes
#2.9 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:14 PM EDT
Jack Huang

You cannot disassociate colour from the symbolism here. That would be naive and fanciful and explains why racism is still entrenched in America as everyone continually plays ostriches to racist acts while trying, in a futile manner, to explain them away.

So, of course, that justifies completely ignoring every other possible angle and simply crying racist when such obvious satire flies completely over your head.

I mean, the cover portrays two black people, thus the cover must completely be about black people, right? Yes, that makes sense, because the New Yorker wants us to think that black people all fist-bump and wear turbans. That must be it.

  • 12 votes
#2.10 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:22 PM EDT
determined0a1

Senator Obama knew and knows that the press/media is/are not kind to anyone.

During the past 7.6 years here and in this NV I read the most gross name calling to an actual sitting President of the USA, satire and not satire, hate, hangings, revenge, impeachments, etc.

What I mean is that the President Obama will have to put on or retire from the race.

Another example is Hillary R. Clinton. What worst could be say about her? None - 0 - zilch.

To the Obama suporters this is the only truth: It comes w/the territory, it comes with the Hail to the Chief and riding in AF-1

Get over it.

  • 2 votes
#2.11 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:10 PM EDT
QACoach

@Skeptic...

...you're going to have to explain the racism angle..."

Ok...try this: The New Yorker has drawn the caricature of Michelle Obama to look like Angela Davis -- the "feared" image of black women from the '60s.

So, yeah...there is the racism slant in their "satire".

  • 3 votes
#2.12 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:56 PM EDT
QACoach

@ Sam Adams...

First of all, its impossible in the US to portray whites in a racist manner. There really aren't any stereotypes

Of course there is a white racist image...many of them. Try a hooded figure in white sheets. Try a "Deliverance" scene of a bunch of guys with rotten teeth and a tattered appearance. Try a plantation owner whippin' the "boys".

There are plenty of images/stereotypes of white racists!

  • 5 votes
#2.13 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:01 PM EDT
Samuel Adams

No, those are not racial stereotypes of a white person. They are stereotypes of, like you said, a white racist. The complaints about that picture aren't that they're giving Obama some sort of attitude (as in the problems aren't that he's dressed as an extremist), they're that the picture plays off racial stereotypes. Therefore a picture of McCain would have to play off white stereotypes, not those of a white racist, which is impossible in the US because the whites are in power, and therefore look 'normal'.

  • 1 vote
#2.14 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:21 PM EDT
Skal

Like.. he would have to be putting mayonnaise on white bread or something?

As a whity myself I don't see how anyone can eat mayonnaise, @!$%#s disgusting.

  • 1 vote
#2.15 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:25 PM EDT
katrix

No, those are not racial stereotypes of a white person.

The tattered toothless man is definitely a racial stereotype of a poor white person.

    #2.16 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:40 PM EDT
    Ms CYPRAH

    Therefore a picture of McCain would have to play off white stereotypes, not those of a white racist, which is impossible in the US because the whites are in power, and therefore look 'normal'.

    That's exactly it, Samuel. Comes under the heading of 'white privilege'. The power of the media is not just in what they do but in how people interpret their output, the credibility they put on it, the ethos they share with it and whether it aligns with their thinking and reinforces that thinking. That is the danger of this front cover: confirming those thinking and beliefs.

    I would have no problem with this cartoon inside the magazine, AND with a definite story supporting it. But on the front cover by itself without a context in sight? One wonders exactly what the motives are in that portrayal.

    • 1 vote
    #2.17 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:03 PM EDT
    Samuel Adams

    Is McCain a poor white person who's campaign is a big deal because he might be the first poor white president?

    • 1 vote
    #2.18 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:04 PM EDT
    Skal

    Should it be a big deal that Obama is black? I don't really think so, in fact I don't think it's important at all, unless you want to degrade him to nothing more then a pedestol to idolaize.

    Yellow, red, black, white, brown, mixed... we're all just people, I wish we would take our focus off color.

      #2.19 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:07 PM EDT
      katrix

      No, McCain isn't a poor white person - but if he were, the New Yorker wouldn't consider him to be off limits. Did you read the comments that discussed all the white people they've portrayed via satire - like 2.4? This is what they do. So black people should be off limits, but white people shouldn't be?

      The New Yorker is typically read by intelligent people and satire is kind of pointless if you put a big sign on it with an arrow saying "SATIRE HERE" for those who don't get it.

      • 2 votes
      #2.20 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:07 PM EDT
      Skal

      Hey Katrix I'm assuming your talking to SA right?

        #2.21 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:11 PM EDT
        katrix

        Yep, should have quoted the sentence I was responding to - you typed too fast :)

          #2.22 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:14 PM EDT
          Samuel Adams

          What are you talking about katrix? My original response was in response to the author's request that something racist be drawn of McCain. I have not been saying that white people are off limit to parody, but that it is impossible to create a racist satirical picture of a white person solely on the fact that they're white. Sounds like you're the one that should read the comments. I do not even think that this drawing was very racist, just in bad taste and meant to solicit a reaction like this.

          Also, while the New Yorker is typically read by "intellectuals", its covers are rather well known and seen by many on the newsstands and such.

          • 1 vote
          #2.23 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:31 PM EDT
          Ms CYPRAH

          Yellow, red, black, white, brown, mixed... we're all just people, I wish we would take our focus off color.

          People in positions of power can afford such thoughts because they take representation so casually, and automatic, they do not attribute such success to their colour. But those who are kept back because of their own colour cannot afford to ignore it, Skal, neither can they afford to deny that others of a different colour - those wishing not to focus on colour - just happen to control every aspect of society!

          • 1 vote
          #2.24 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:55 PM EDT
          magz

          #2.10

          Yes Jack, I am still laughing.

          Twisted magazine cover, huh? Mwahahahaha....

            #2.25 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:08 PM EDT
            greenguy

            Skal, I'm thinking of kicking you out of the white club. What on earth do you put on your tuna sandwich if not mayo?

            • 2 votes
            #2.26 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:29 PM EDT
            katrix

            What are you talking about katrix? My original response was in response to the author's request that something racist be drawn of McCain.

            Therefore a picture of McCain would have to play off white stereotypes, not those of a white racist, which is impossible in the US because the whites are in power, and therefore look 'normal'.

            You haven't paid any attention to how poor white people are still allowed to be the butt of every joke, obviously. Nobody satirizes blacks, Asians, Mexicans or any other race about being toothless, incestuous, drunkards - with nobody protesting. Oh, and don't forget that some of them like NASCAR. It's still PC to make fun of them. There are a lot of white people who don't look "normal."

            And as I said to Ms Cyprah, anyone who has already bought into these stereotypes about Obama has already made up their mind. It might help some people think, though, which is good. Anyone who just looks at a magazine cover isn't going to consider facts anyway.

            • 4 votes
            #2.27 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:52 PM EDT
            Skal

            Sorry greenguy i hate fish :(

              #2.28 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:01 PM EDT
              angela593

              Race and Religion go hand in hand.
              Two topics, but very close cousins.

              • 1 vote
              #2.29 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:43 AM EDT
              Samuel Adams

              First, how many times do I have to say that John McCain is not a poor white man? A New Yorker cover depicitng McCain as some kind of 'redneck' would not make sense.

              Second, the stereotypes that follow poor whites around have very little to do with race. One such stereotype might be the poor farmer in overalls with a straw hat, poor dental hygene, wheat in his mouth, etc. This stereotype could easily be applied to a black person. These issues are about classism which is certainly a problem, and tied in some ways to race. Poor people are not the dominant class in America and so they are stereotyped. However, these stereotypes are primarily (although, I admit, not always) different than an identity of whiteness. White people, as a 'race', can not be stereotyped.

              I would also liked to note that I do not believe race actually exists, and that we must acknowledge its modern creation in the 1600s to oppress non-whites. All this discussion is focusing on the United States social construct of race. Interestingly enough, Barack Obama would be considered 100% white in Brazil.

              • 1 vote
              #2.30 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:19 AM EDT
              Jack Huang

              A New Yorker cover depicitng McCain as some kind of 'redneck' would not make sense.

              A redneck in gold robes, sitting upon a throne of ketchup would make sense. But hey, don't like minor non-racist things like turbans, fist bumps, AK's, and pictures hanging on walls get in the way of declaring the New Yorker to be a mouthpiece of the Klan. I'm sure that the first thing everyone notices is the afro, nothing else. I mean, if that's even marginally false, people would really have no grounds for calling the New Yorker racist, so it must be true. Right?

              Second, the stereotypes that follow poor whites around have very little to do with race. One such stereotype might be the poor farmer in overalls with a straw hat, poor dental hygene, wheat in his mouth, etc. This stereotype could easily be applied to a black person.

              When Jeff Foxworthy runs his "If you [insert line[, you just might be a redneck" routine, I'll bet you 100:1 odds that the mental image he conjures in 99% of his audience is that of a dumb white hick.

              I would also liked to note that I do not believe race actually exists, and that we must acknowledge its modern creation in the 1600s to oppress non-whites.

              Race, as a social construct, existed long before the 1600s. You're a fool if you really think race was invented by relatively modern slave traders. The ancient Greeks had an institutional concept of it already.

              All this discussion is focusing on the United States social construct of race. Interestingly enough, Barack Obama would be considered 100% white in Brazil.

              That's what happens when a person becomes so focused on race that a picture of two black people automagically becomes a symbol of racism. After all, Osama bin Laden is black, and so is the fist bump.

              • 1 vote
              #2.31 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:14 AM EDT
              wmolaw

              Jack:

              Hell, read an article that said there are more slaves today, than at any time in the history of the world.

              Most of them are in muslim countries, btw.

              That's what happens when a person becomes so focused on race that a picture of two black people automagically becomes a symbol of racism.

              Got that right.

              • 1 vote
              #2.32 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:34 PM EDT
              katrix

              Well, Obama has now come out and said he sees it as in insult to Muslim-Americans. He didn't say anything about feeling it insulted blacks. As I said earlier, if it were an attack (which I don't think I was) it would be attacking Muslims, not blacks. Obama agrees.

                #2.33 - Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:27 AM EDT
                Samuel Adams

                I don't understand about how so many people do not understand the concept of race. The greeks did not use race. I have no idea where you learned your history, but they used ethnicity as a factor but did not assign someone a different class purely because of the color of their skin. The fact that race is a fairly modern concept it generally accepted by academic anthroplogists and historians, so you're coming off as really ignorant.
                Second, I did admit that most hick stereotypes are tied with being white.

                However that has nothing to do with white stereotypes. White 'Hicks' are an opressed people really. It's a classist issue that has race tied in. However, there is no stereotype that assigns all white people the role of hick. All the examples that you all have been bringing up are white subgroups. 'All' Hicks/KKK Members/Etc may be white but not all white people are Hicks/KKK Members/Etc according to our culture. These subgroups are not the dominant people in our culture. Powerful, healthy, and well off white men like McCain are. There are no racial stereotypes of such a person that can be drawn.

                A redneck in gold robes, sitting upon a throne of ketchup would make sense.

                I have never heard anyone call McCain a redneck. Please find some proof of why this would make any sense. Also I don't see what ketchup has anything to do with this, or gold robes? What makes this racist is that, despite its intended message, it plays upon peoples fears. You seem to think that those of us who are calling this racist are doing it merely because it has black people in it. You are very wrong. There have been plenty of drawings of Obama that are not racist. They do not play on racial stereotypes. This does.
                You completely distorted my point about Brazil. It has nothing to do with being focused on race. Hell, they're more focused on race than we are and many dark people in the country get their skin bleached in order to become more white. My point was that we have to look at this in the concept of American history, culture and mindset.

                • 1 vote
                #2.34 - Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:31 AM EDT
                Sgt. IronHorse

                Ms. Cyprah, my question is... and I'm NOT, by any stretch of the imagination accusing Barack Hussein Obama of BEING a muslim or practicing islam... but why did he change his name from Barry Sorento AFTER he was out of the house and away from the muslim influence? Have I missed something? Now I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer but I had more sense than that when I was a blithering idiot!

                Just Wondering...

                IronHorse*

                • 1 vote
                #2.35 - Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:14 PM EDT
                Ms CYPRAH

                why did he change his name from Barry Sorento AFTER he was out of the house and away from the muslim influence?

                It doesn't matter why he changed his name as an individual. As long as he is comfortable with it, as you are happy with yours, that's all that matters. I have not walked in his shoes or shared his pain so can't answer for him. Everyone's name is unique to them. My guess is that he went through a period of anti-dad when he was younger, which most kids do, because of his father deserting his mother. Then probably reconciled in his head with his father when he was more mature and changed his name, as a mark of respect for him, and to align closer with him because his father shared that name too. You forget that, given his background and early life, he would have been in turmoil as a young man, unsure of his own identity in a mixed race situation. Until one has been in it, one cannot judge it. I doubt if his name change had anything to do with religion.

                • 1 vote
                #2.36 - Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:03 PM EDT
                Brian Ford

                It may be true, I honestly don't know, but I can't find anywhere other than a few right-wing rants and this one comment stating that his name used to be Barry Sorento. Am I missing something? His bio on wikipedia doesn't mention it. A google search for Barry Sorento doesn't turn anything up (other than the aforementioned slams from the right) so...what's the deal?

                • 1 vote
                #2.37 - Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:03 AM EDT
                Brian Ford

                Ah. Well, mystery solved.

                (It's Soetoro.)

                And, his name has always been Barack. Barry was a nickname. Soetoro was his adoptive father's name.

                The reason it mainly turns up on right-wing blogs is because it's bull@!$%# fear-mongering from right-wing pundits and bloggers and, now, PUMA.

                • 2 votes
                #2.38 - Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:11 AM EDT
                wmolaw

                Brian:

                I really don't know about this area.

                Was his name always Hussein? I just read an article (Newsweek) and it didn't mention his middle name.

                • 1 vote
                #2.39 - Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:28 AM EDT
                Ms CYPRAH

                The reason it mainly turns up on right-wing blogs is because it's bull@!$%# fear-mongering from right-wing pundits and bloggers and, now, PUMA.

                Thank you, Brian, because that's precisely what it is likely to be.

                • 1 vote
                #2.40 - Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:41 PM EDT
                Sgt. IronHorse

                Sotero.... not Sorento... my apologies

                • 1 vote
                #2.41 - Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:28 PM EDT
                Reply
                TheJonesGirl

                I just tried to email them to express my disgust and received a message that the server was at capacity. I won't be buying The New Yorker again, that much I can tell you.

                • 5 votes
                Reply#3 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:20 AM EDT
                SepticSkeptic

                How many copies have you bought recently? Most of the people who are going to be mad at them...wouldn't read their publication anyway. Your disgust with their stupid cover, while commendable, is irrelevant if you didn't read the New Yorker anyway. I don't read the magazine, so I haven't bothered bothering them. If you don't buy their rag, they don't care about your opinion.

                • 9 votes
                #3.1 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:38 AM EDT
                TheJonesGirl

                I used to subscribe and have been buying it regularly at a newsstand (every 2 or 3 weeks). So I am a regular reader.

                • 5 votes
                #3.2 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:54 AM EDT
                Ms CYPRAH

                Good for you, TheJonesGirl. It doesn't matter whether you would normally read it or not, I applaud your action. Evil only thrives when good people do nothing.

                • 5 votes
                #3.3 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:54 AM EDT
                SepticSkeptic

                I used to subscribe and have been buying it regularly at a newsstand (every 2 or 3 weeks). So I am a regular reader.

                If that's the case, your boycott has some meaning. Good for you! I love to see people vote with their pocketbooks.

                • 3 votes
                #3.4 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:37 PM EDT
                determined0a1

                So?

                It comes w/the territory.

                Either he is in or he is out.

                • 1 vote
                #3.5 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:11 PM EDT
                Reply
                Skal

                *shrugs*

                Maybe I'm just rather insensitive but I thought it was funny. Just the pure absurdity that the neo-cons have been painting about Obama finally put to illustration. I saw an image portraying the stupidity of others fears and found it telling. I guess if that makes me racist.. so be it, I'll still be voting for Obama, despite my label.

                • 12 votes
                #4 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:59 AM EDT
                Ms CYPRAH

                I saw an image portraying the stupidity of others fears and found it telling.

                You might be sensible and articulate enough to see that, Skal, but I doubt if many other people with genuine fears around terrorist issues that are not being addressed would have your laid back attitude to it or see the 'joke'.

                • 2 votes
                #4.1 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:22 AM EDT
                Skal

                Hrmm I guess what I'm saying is that I don't see people pointing out racism in funny cartoon depictions of Bush, either in "duds," riding a missle, or put on the head of a monkey, and so to then point at this picture of Obama and say "racism" is... racist. Maybe that's flawed logic but that's what it says to me. Obama will become president, Obama will be made fun of, and I don't think we should say "racism" every time it happens. It's part of the presidential gig. And in this case it isn't even making fun of Obama it's making fun of peope saying stupid things about Obama.

                I don't know I just feel that racisim is real and needs to be addressed but having such a high sensitivity to it makes it worse and makes it harder to heal the wounds of our races.

                • 8 votes
                #4.2 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:39 AM EDT
                Ms CYPRAH

                I don't know I just feel that racisim is real and needs to be addressed but having such a high sensitivity to it makes it worse and makes it harder to heal the wounds of our races.

                One cannot say that racisim is real and needs to be addressed, yet deliberately ignore racist acts and then expect the problem to cure itself. duh!

                I couldn't care less about any cartoon on Obama, but in these sensitive times, when the focus is purely on terrorism, to then depict a future president in that way, when NO other White president has been caricatured as such, is unacceptable. And no amount of pretence around it will make it any less so. :o(

                • 1 vote
                #4.3 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:46 AM EDT
                Skal

                I just have different standards of racism, right or wrong. Now if you were to show me a picture of McCain dressed in a KKK outfit holding a lynching rope with Obama in it... that's racism. I think I would be hard pressed though to say whether it was racists against whites or racists agains blacks though. Swing vote for me.

                And the focus is not on terrorism, at least not from the polls I've seen throughout the primaries, more on Economy. And I'm hard pressed to believe that "NO other White president" has been made fun of "in that way." Are you trying to say that no other president has been drawn as a terrorist? Or something else? I think I'm just unclear on what you meant.

                One cannot say that racisim is real and needs to be addressed, yet deliberately ignore racist acts and then expect the problem to cure itself. duh!

                I'm not going to get angry every time a comedian makes fun of white people, sorry, it's just funny, and I refuse to have that laugh taken from me.

                I think laughing about racism and it's absurdity is simply more constructive then trying to search it out and condem it everytime we see it. I almost want to say it's like the Red Scare, if you're always searching for it, you're always going to find it, and it's mostly going to be people that were "innocent" that are going to get hurt.

                • 3 votes
                #4.4 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:16 AM EDT
                SuperUnspecial

                You might be sensible and articulate enough to see that, Skal, but I doubt if many other people with genuine fears around terrorist issues that are not being addressed would have your laid back attitude to it or see the 'joke'.

                Ms Cyprah go get a copy of the New Yorker. Their entire audience gets it.

                As far as New Yorker Satirical covers goes. Here's a list

                Look for yourself

                Bush
                Clinton
                Kerry
                Cheney
                Larry Craig

                I'd show more but it looks like the New Yorker is getting a DOS attack or maybe just swamped, and this other site doesn't have too many covers.

                • 6 votes
                #4.5 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:30 AM EDT
                SepticSkeptic

                when NO other White president has been caricatured as such

                Uh, I just gave you two examples. You want more? You can't continue to pretend that New Yorker doesn't make fun of white people. And you still haven't explained how Obama's blackness is the subject of the cartoon. The fact that people are stupid enough to think he's muslim is the subject.

                • 6 votes
                #4.6 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:43 AM EDT
                determined0a1

                Well, I did not find the illustration funny, but.....this is the United States of America and the press/media is under the impression that the First Amendment covers what they had been doing since I came from a third world country.

                • 2 votes
                #4.7 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:13 PM EDT
                Skal

                First Amendment covers what they had been doing since I came from a third world country.

                Yes this is what the First Amendment protects.

                But you're feel to think what you wish, the only thing I'm wanting to point out is that I don't actually think this is an attack on Obama at all, nor an attack on Muslisms.

                • 1 vote
                #4.8 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:24 PM EDT
                Ms CYPRAH

                And you still haven't explained how Obama's blackness is the subject of the cartoon.

                Skeptic, let's say that because I am from across the Pond we are likely to see things differently. I am sure what might seem racist to me as a Black woman might not seem racist to others, especially if they are White, and the same with gays. They might perceive discrimination but which others might disagree with as being meaningless. So people's individual perceptions can never be compared to each other because it entirely depends on their personal journey, their own life experience and their expectations of the behaviour of others. So let's agree to differ there. However, if people keep ignoring evil portrayals like that, while blaming the potential victims for their reaction, society will simply get more of the same in reality.

                • 2 votes
                #4.9 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:12 PM EDT
                Mike V.

                I couldn't care less about any cartoon on Obama

                Then why make such a big deal about this one?

                but in these sensitive times, when the focus is purely on terrorism, to then depict a future president in that way, when NO other White president has been caricatured as such, is unacceptable.

                What about all the people who call out Bush as an American terrorist who is tearing up the Middle East?

                • 4 votes
                #4.10 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:29 PM EDT
                determined0a1

                Mike,

                Reading a daily dosis of lsota propaganda here it's more than enough.

                • 3 votes
                #4.11 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:38 PM EDT
                Skal

                Man I'm on a role today, what is Isota?

                  #4.12 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:52 PM EDT
                  Ms CYPRAH

                  Are you trying to say that no other president has been drawn as a terrorist?

                  Yes, and in such a graphic way.

                  • 1 vote
                  #4.13 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:58 PM EDT
                  Mike V.

                  Do your research, Ms Cyprah

                  Here

                  Here

                  Here

                  Just to cite a few.

                  • 3 votes
                  #4.14 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:12 PM EDT
                  determined0a1

                  They should have run the idea by their editorial staff and perhaps the NAACP just to be on the safe side. I'm sure they're going to learn to be more careful in the fufure.

                  Am I dreaming?

                  Do you mean that from now on the NAACP has to check and approve everything about Obama?

                  Then Dolores.......You are sending the Independents to vote in masses for McCain.

                  • 4 votes
                  #4.15 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:56 PM EDT
                  Skal

                  ...who are you quoting?

                  Ooo are you talking about comment 1.10? Cause if you are you're on thread 4, just you know... fyi

                  • 1 vote
                  #4.16 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:16 PM EDT
                  wmolaw

                  Mike V:

                  I'm sure you could have gotten another hundred links.

                  Good post.

                  • 4 votes
                  #4.17 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:55 AM EDT
                  Reply
                  srkishy

                  While I agree it's inappropriate, I disagree that it is rascist. Maybe all the original rumors and lies were rascist, but the cartoonist is merely portraying the images, I don't think he was trying to be rascist.

                  I do also agree that this would have worked out much better had they done a split-screen and did a nice caricature of John McCain on the other half, then, it could have been great.

                  • 4 votes
                  #5 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:26 AM EDT
                  Ms CYPRAH

                  I do also agree that this would have worked out much better had they done a split-screen and did a nice caricature of John McCain on the other half, then, it could have been great.

                  Great suggestion, srkishy. I would have had no problems with that at all, because what's good for the goose is also good for the gander. It is the one dimensional and deliberately provocative nature of it that worries me.

                  By the way, racism, sexism, ageism etc., is a matter of perception, particularly from the view of the recipient because they are the ones in the firing line.

                  • 2 votes
                  #5.1 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:31 AM EDT
                  katrix

                  By the way, racism, sexism, ageism etc., is a matter of perception, particularly from the view of the recipient because they are the ones in the firing line.

                  That's a good point. Obama isn't commenting - but I would guess he'd view it more as an attack on his middle name, and the idiotic rumors about his being a Muslim, than he would as an attack on his race.

                  • 1 vote
                  #5.2 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:09 PM EDT
                  determined0a1

                  Obama and his supporters have to get over it.

                  • 3 votes
                  #5.3 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:16 PM EDT
                  Skal

                  I would guess he'd view it more as an attack on his middle name, and the idiotic rumors about his being a Muslim, than he would as an attack on his race.

                  Obama and his supporters have to get over it.

                  No, I think yall are both missing the point. This isn't an attack on Obama. This is an attack on the attacks his enemies have been throwing at him. Which changes the entire meaning and point this picture is trying to create.

                  • 1 vote
                  #5.4 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:22 PM EDT
                  katrix

                  You're right, Skal - and I don't see it as an attack. I was just trying to point out that if Obama (and all those folks who don't get satire) see it that way, it shouldn't be as a racial attack.
                  I see it making fun of those who think he's a Muslim and worry about his middle name (his turban), an attack on those who whine that he didn't wear a flag pin (the burning flag), who whine about Michelle's comment about being proud of her country (her gun and possibly the burning flag), who say he's too white (their portrayal as white), who say he's too black (Michelle's turban), and so on. Although I'm sure I'm missing a few here.

                  • 2 votes
                  #5.5 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:44 PM EDT
                  Skal

                  Katrix:

                  O ok I see where you're coming from. My apologies.

                    #5.6 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:55 PM EDT
                    katrix

                    None needed :)

                      #5.7 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:09 PM EDT
                      Skal

                      Katrix you realize you're not suppose to be nice on NV right? It's creepying me out a bit. ^_^

                        #5.8 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:12 PM EDT
                        Ms CYPRAH

                        I see your point too, katrix, which, when explained in that sensible way, can be accepted. But many people out there will not see it like that. They are likely to see it as confirming their worst suspicions about Barack and his wife. They are likely to take it at face value.

                        If Barack were running for office in a country already used to Black presidents and without such entrenched racism, I could buy your explanation. And my article might not even have existed. But how quickly we forget the open and searing racism of many Whites who did not vote for Barack because of their fears and his colour, and said so in the recent primaries. Thus a front cover like this simply fuels such fears and confirm them to others, a key point missing by some of the critics here.

                        • 2 votes
                        #5.9 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:20 PM EDT
                        katrix

                        But how quickly we forget the open and searing racism of many Whites who did not vote for Barack because of their fears and his colour,

                        Some whites won't vote for him out of racism, because he's black, true. But there are also blacks who say that he acts too white. There are whites (and others) who are so ignorant that they think his not wearing a flag pin, or Michelle's comment about being proud of her country, make him unpatriotic - that isn't racism. There whites (and others, probably some blacks too) who are so ignorant that they think he's a Muslim - that is fear but not racism, at least not against blacks.

                        As the editor of the New Yorker said - which clearly shows he thinks the attacks against Obama that he portrayed via satire are absurd:

                        Satire is part of what we do, and it is meant to bring things out into the open, to hold up a mirror to the absurd

                        Ms Cyprah, I do see your concern that this will only reinforce those people's worst suspicions, but then I think anyone that ignorant has already made up their mind to ignore facts, and this won't make it any worse. Maybe a few will even read what the editor had to say about it and realize how absurd they are - and that they are the ones being made fun of - but I don't hold out hope for that.

                        And Skal, you're a scurvy dog! There, do you feel better now? :)

                        • 3 votes
                        #5.10 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:39 PM EDT
                        Skal

                        katrix:

                        And Skal, you're a scurvy dog!

                        That's a little uncalled for. ;)

                          #5.11 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:54 PM EDT
                          Ms CYPRAH

                          That's a little uncalled for. ;)

                          And pretty animalist, I would think! :o)

                          • 1 vote
                          #5.12 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:00 PM EDT
                          Ms CYPRAH

                          Ms Cyprah, I do see your concern that this will only reinforce those people's worst suspicions, but then I think anyone that ignorant has already made up their mind to ignore facts, and this won't make it any worse.

                          How do we know that, katrix? Do you have a crystal ball? Everything in the public domain always has unintended consequences because of the sheer number of people and perspectives involved!

                          • 1 vote
                          #5.13 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:02 PM EDT
                          katrix

                          I don't know that. But from what I've read about the people who already hold these views about Obama, they're beyond hope as it is. Hopefully the discussions this cover has caused will help the editor's comments come out even more. Drudge Report had the editor's comments placed as prominently as the article about the cover, and also had a link to the Obama article.

                          But as SepticSkeptic said above -

                          How about the one with Bush and Cheney as the co-stars of Brokeback Mountain? I'm not sure if that's more insulting to a sitting president or to gay people...

                          This is the New Yorker, not FoxNews, MSNBC, CNN or whoever. Their job is satire. Do you worry about the unintended consequences that may have befallen Bush or Cheney? Or the gays who might have been offended?

                          • 2 votes
                          #5.14 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:58 PM EDT
                          wmolaw

                          Katrix:

                          It will never cease to amaze me how incapable of taking criticism Obama supporters are.

                          Hell, as you note, as has been noted by numerous other posters, GW, Cheney, numerous others have been lampooned in as bad, if not worse way.

                          Folks need to get a life. Obama is a politician, just like any other politician.

                          • 1 vote
                          #5.15 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:57 AM EDT
                          Ms CYPRAH

                          Folks need to get a life. Obama is a politician, just like any other politician.

                          No, wmolaw, he is not. He is the first Black politician with a genuine chance of getting to the White House being handicapped by a sea of underlying racism. No other White presidential candidate has had to fight such racism just to feel equal to his White peers! By ignoring his situation and pretending he's White, with the same perceptions and acceptance, you are in denial of the reality.

                          A few years from now when there have been a few Black presidents, and they are as regular as White incumbents and more accepted, then you can say that. But certainly not now. That's wishful thinking.

                          • 1 vote
                          #5.16 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:07 PM EDT
                          Brian Ford

                          No other White presidential candidate has had to fight such racism just to feel equal to his White peers!

                          And, what you need to realize, is that this is the first time all of these issues are being dealt with, hashed out, and openly discussed as idiotic by a large number of people. There will always be those who will simply refuse to accept the truth, but this cover puts the issue out there, and people who were simply uninformed, now see the debate shift to: "These concepts are ridiculous."

                          That it took an over-the-top satirical cover on a liberal magazine to make it happen is the only astounding aspect of the whole drama.

                          • 1 vote
                          #5.17 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:24 PM EDT
                          wmolaw

                          Ms. Cyprah:

                          Sorry, Obama doesn't get a free pass because he is black. Isn't going to happen, and it shouldn't happen. No one gave Hillary a free pass because she was the first woman seeking the highest office, and they shouldn't have.

                          • 3 votes
                          #5.18 - Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:41 AM EDT
                          Ms CYPRAH

                          No one gave Hillary a free pass because she was the first woman seeking the highest office, and they shouldn't have.

                          But no one portrayed her as a terrorist though, with a gun over her shoulder!

                          • 1 vote
                          #5.19 - Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:06 PM EDT
                          wmolaw

                          Ms. Cyprah:

                          You can google this issue. I don't know if she was ever depicted in a cartoon as a terrorist, but she has been, for years, depicted in writing as a terrorist loving politician, ever since, really, she kissed Yasser baby on tv.

                          You just need to look. ALL politicians have been lampooned unmercifully over the years, fairly or not, and most have been lampooned on EVERY subject.

                          This just smacks of over sensitivity.

                          • 1 vote
                          #5.20 - Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:33 AM EDT
                          Ms CYPRAH

                          This just smacks of over sensitivity.

                          In your perception, wmolaw, but as I am Black with my own perspective and shared history, I think I prefer to speak for myself on such issues rather than anyone assuming how sensitive I, or any other Black person, should feel.

                          • 1 vote
                          #5.21 - Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:43 PM EDT
                          wmolaw

                          Ms. Cyprah:

                          Ah, not to put too fine a point on it, but when an overly sensitive person says that only she can determine her level of sensitivity, that kind of proves the point.

                          And when you intimate that only a black person can understand a black person, then the same should be true all the way around, only whites understand whites, asians understand asians.

                          So, I assume you will not be making such assumptions about other races, right?

                          • 1 vote
                          #5.22 - Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:32 PM EDT
                          Brian Ford

                          And when you intimate that only a black person can understand a black person...

                          I don't think that is an altogether controversial statement. I can't understand what it "feels like" to be a woman with a vagina, either. I can empathize, I can listen and try to know as much as possible about it. I also can't know what it means to grow up black, on a certain level. Even a white man growing up in a black neighborhood doesn't get the same experience. I can't know how it feels to think that maybe -- just maybe -- I'm being treated slightly differently, even if it turns out I'm not. With that said, yes, it's the same the other way around. How can it not be?

                          Now, I will agree that a black person, a white person, a woman, a man, shouldn't ever try to preclude someone else from a discussion, based on their being on the "other" side of the actual experience. I don't ever want to hear "but, I'm black, ad you're not, therefore you have no place in this discussion..." That's why Spike Lee tends to infuriate me, despite his undeniable skill at his craft. One year, he's telling Quentin Tarantino he's not black enough to use the word @!$%# in his movies, and this year he's telling Clint Eastwood that he needs to represent the black community *more* in his movies. The man needs to make up his damned mind about what white people should or shouldn't attempt when it comes to representing black people, but most importantly, he needs to step off his pedestal and stop trying to be the key master.

                          And, when I do hear someone try to shut me out, I say: "Whatever. Enjoy yourself." And then I'm out. Why bother debating or discussing anything with someone like that? If my well-meaning, sincere input isn't wanted, I don't want to be there anyway.

                          • 2 votes
                          #5.23 - Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:01 PM EDT
                          wmolaw

                          Brian:

                          You're right.

                          • 1 vote
                          #5.24 - Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:14 PM EDT
                          Ms CYPRAH

                          Why bother debating or discussing anything with someone like that? If my well-meaning, sincere input isn't wanted, I don't want to be there anyway.

                          Absolutely, Brian. Thanks for that very useful comment.

                          No matter how we try to empathise and be inclusive of each other, we can never feel like another person does, as we are all individuals: unique in every sense. Unless we can go inside a person's mind, share their pain, their joy, their anxieties, how can we expect to be like them? How can we expect to really understand them? The only thing we can hope for is some empathy as humans travelling a common road, not as clones sharing every element of that journey.

                          • 1 vote
                          #5.25 - Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:34 PM EDT
                          Reply
                          Brian Ford

                          Is the theme racism? Yes. Is the theme about misinformation? Yes.

                          The outrage I'm seeing expressed by Obama supporters over this cover is misplaced and brings to mind people who try and have art censored, because they don't like (or worse yet, understand) the message.

                          You're not SUPPOSED to like the message of the illustration, and if you think that a liberal rag like The New Yorker agrees with the issues that are depicted in that picture, I'm just not sure what to say to that... The fact is, those are all issues that are in play right now, primarily by those who oppose Obama and wish to derail his candidacy.

                          Obama's campaign is also wrong in the way they've handled the situation.

                          I assume there's an article as well (can't get the website to load) and am not surprised to see no one talking about the contents of the article.

                          • 11 votes
                          #6 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:01 AM EDT
                          Ms CYPRAH

                          I assume there's an article as well (can't get the website to load) and am not surprised to see no one talking about the contents of the article.

                          That' the whole point, Brian. There is NO article, hence why I said it was out of context. Those in the know who alerted me said there was no accompanying article with the picture.

                          I find it fascinating that everytime something blatantly racist occurs, Obama supporters are accused of being thi- skinned and censorious. Jeeez. I think it says a lot about the critics who might be vainly trying to turn wrongs into right to justify their own biased perspectives.

                          • 1 vote
                          #6.1 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:16 AM EDT
                          Skal

                          Am I the only one that thinks this picture actually is "pro" Obama. Maybe that's why I'm having a hard time classifying this as racist.

                          • 3 votes
                          #6.2 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:19 AM EDT
                          Ms CYPRAH

                          "pro" Obama

                          In what way, Skal, as I fail to see it!

                          • 1 vote
                          #6.3 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:20 AM EDT
                          Mars313

                          I find it fascinating that everytime something blatantly racist occurs, Obama supporters are accused of being thi- skinned and censorious. Jeeez. I think it says a lot about the critics who might be vainly trying to turn wrongs into right to justify their own biased perspectives.

                          You've nailed it. I have heard the ol' "Black people are more racist than white people" argument, I've heard Obama supporters called racists for claiming racism in the face of true racism. America is still action-packed with racism. Right now White America is starting to get angry about their racism being exposed. America has been trying to wear the "racially-equal" mask for a long time now, but many know the truth. Racist White America feels like they are the victim for not being able to discriminate.

                          I'm not saying all white Americans are racist, but i'm not saying it's a small percentage of American white that are racist either.

                          • 1 vote
                          #6.4 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:21 AM EDT
                          MrMajek

                          The key to satire is assuming that the intended audience is capable of receiving it without totally missing the point...like a good comedy skit or joke...it takes timing. I understand what SKAL means, because it is so stupid, that it addresses stated fears in a "this is how stupid that looks" kind of way.--Which is how I took it on first glance.

                          Maybe a bit too "cheeky", but you're a Brit, after Monty Python you should be prepared for almost anything. If their next cover is Bush holding up his PHD in Diplomacy or McCain dressed as a hippy people might get that easier.

                          • 3 votes
                          #6.5 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:36 AM EDT
                          Skal

                          Exactly.

                          1. It's an extremely liberal publication. If it was FOX news or something like that then we can open it up for further interpretation.

                          2. It's Obama, and NOT McCain. That means OBAMA is getting press, NOT McCain, which means the New Yorker thinks that OBAMA will be president or they wouldn't be featuring him.

                          3. It's absurd, the claims people have been making are absurd, this picture is depicting that in a comical manner.

                          4. I'm taking this in the "reflecting the neo-cons own bigatory back at them" view. That's how I believe they entended it, that's how I'm going to take it. And seen in that light it's funny, and Pro Obama.

                          • 6 votes
                          #6.6 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:43 AM EDT
                          katrix

                          Those in the know who alerted me said there was no accompanying article with the picture.

                          Actually, there is an accompanying article about Obama's formative political years in Chicago, per CNN.

                          • 1 vote
                          #6.7 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:12 PM EDT
                          SepticSkeptic

                          That' the whole point, Brian. There is NO article, hence why I said it was out of context. Those in the know who alerted me said there was no accompanying article with the picture.

                          The issue, which goes on sale Monday, includes a long piece by Ryan Lizza about Obama's start in Chicago politics.

                          Miss Cyprah, I hate to be the one to break it to you, but you've been lied to.

                          • 3 votes
                          #6.8 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:15 PM EDT
                          Jack Huang

                          I find it fascinating that everytime something blatantly racist occurs, Obama supporters are accused of being thi- skinned and censorious. Jeeez. I think it says a lot about the critics who might be vainly trying to turn wrongs into right to justify their own biased perspectives.

                          Oh, please. Now you're not only grasping at the racism straws, you're grasping at partisan straws. I'm an Obama supporter, however I have the sense to see satire when it's so damnably blatant as the New Yorker cover? Every one of its mischaracterizations is one that has been made by Obama's enemies, and to simultaneously bring them all into such relief illustrates their absurdity.

                          In what way, Skal, as I fail to see it!

                          In the same way that Swift doesn't actually wish to open a deep-fried-baby hot dog stand.

                          • 4 votes
                          #6.9 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:16 PM EDT
                          determined0a1

                          Well, Obama as President will be a target and his supporters have to get used to it like for me is to read the N word written often in NV.

                          To me is Obama representing his love for Michelle and Michelle is the one that has the drive of the family.

                          • 1 vote
                          #6.10 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:28 PM EDT
                          Ms CYPRAH

                          Miss Cyprah, I hate to be the one to break it to you, but you've been lied to.

                          If there is an accompanying article, I do take that back, Skeptic! :o)

                          • 1 vote
                          #6.11 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:25 PM EDT
                          Robert Blevins - AB of Seattle

                          Brian Ford says, in part:

                          'The outrage I'm seeing expressed by Obama supporters over this cover is misplaced and brings to mind people who try and have art censored, because they don't like (or worse yet, understand) the message.'

                          But it's NOT just 'Obama supporters' who are outraged. There is NO satirical tag on the cover. There is NO title to a story inside that relates to the cover.
                          Imagine this: Let's say I created this picture myself and then post up at Newsvine. (without 'The New Yorker' on the cover, of course) They would cancel my account here in a second.

                          Satire needs to be denoted as such. They hung out their racist cover, and now they are paying the price. I said this in another comment, but reports from Long Islanders (heavy readers of the New Yorker) are justifiably angry and many are canceling their subscriptions.

                          FYI: I am the managing editor for a magazine now, and have worked with several others. No editing staff with half a brain between them would let that cover go out without something ELSE on the cover denoting satire, or a satirical article inside. Otherwise, it's just a tasteless Mad Magazine poster for the newsstand.

                          Freedom of speech is a given. But a certain modicum of responsibility often accompanies it, as well...especially with a large readership.

                          • 3 votes
                          #6.12 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:50 AM EDT
                          wmolaw

                          The New Yorker is known for satirical covers.

                          As noted above, GW and Cheney as the stars of Brokeback Moutain.

                          GW as a maid, cleaning up around Cheney, etc., etc.

                          Funny, how suddenly, the New Yorker must now "denote" its satire, as satire?

                          Give me a frigging break. Satire only works if it doesn't HAVE to be denoted as such.

                          What you folks are really saying, is that maybe lots of folks won't see this as satire, as there may be germs of truth to it which those folks believe exist.

                          That is a different issue.

                          • 3 votes
                          #6.13 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:00 AM EDT
                          Jack Huang

                          Well, Obama as President will be a target and his supporters have to get used to it like for me is to read the N word written often in NV.

                          Putting a turban on Obama is like calling him the N-word? Oh, right, yeah, you keep thinking that.

                          Imagine this: Let's say I created this picture myself and then post up at Newsvine. (without 'The New Yorker' on the cover, of course) They would cancel my account here in a second.

                          You can conjure all the fantasies you want. Further, the New Yorker is known for its biting satire. You're not.

                          Satire needs to be denoted as such.

                          And as we all know, Swift wrote, at the end of his essay on the economics of baby ingestion: "Just kidding."

                          I said this in another comment, but reports from Long Islanders (heavy readers of the New Yorker) are justifiably angry and many are canceling their subscriptions.

                          Long Islanders live in a world far removed from the rest of reality.

                          • 3 votes
                          #6.14 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:23 AM EDT
                          wmolaw

                          Jack:

                          Oh, man this got me laughing my ass off!

                          And as we all know, Swift wrote, at the end of his essay on the economics of baby ingestion: "Just kidding."

                          What was the name of the book, "A Modest Proposal," right?

                          How about this cover of McCain?

                          National Review - McCain Cover

                          Just strikes me that they have no sense of satire, or humor.

                          Unless they are denigrating someone with whom they disagree, then it's all fine and dandy.

                          • 2 votes
                          #6.15 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:37 PM EDT
                          Brian Ford

                          But it's NOT just 'Obama supporters' who are outraged. There is NO satirical tag on the cover. There is NO title to a story inside that relates to the cover. Imagine this: Let's say I created this picture myself and then post up at Newsvine. (without 'The New Yorker' on the cover, of course) They would cancel my account here in a second.

                          Wait, what? All I've seen on Newsvine over the past 2 years is complaints about how we're supposed to include the word "satire" in articles that are satire as well as a "satire" tag.

                          "But, if we label it satire, the whole point will be lost!" went the complaints....

                          And now, in a magazine with a clear history of satirical covers, with a pretty clear liberal bend, and with a cover so ridiculously over the top (yet so perfectly tied to right wing dumbassedness) that I find it amazing that people believe it to be a straight-faced critique of Obama, we suddenly want to ruin the satire by putting a disclaimer in?

                          Bah! This whole debate is ridiculous, but thank GOD people are finally talking about how absurd these accusations against the Obamas are.

                          • 5 votes
                          #6.16 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:59 PM EDT
                          Ms CYPRAH

                          Bah! This whole debate is ridiculous, but thank GOD people are finally talking about how absurd these accusations against the Obamas are.

                          Brian, it is not for you to say the debate is 'ridiculous', unless of course you believe those who agree with the cover deserve their free speech and are final arbiters of what should be discussed, while others who disagree do not!

                          • 1 vote
                          #6.17 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:15 PM EDT
                          Brian Ford

                          Brian, it is not for you to say the debate is 'ridiculous', unless of course you believe those who agree with the cover deserve their free speech and are final arbiters of what should be discussed, while others who disagree do not!

                          Bull. My opinion that the debate is ridiculous is just as valid as yours that the covers are inappropriate and racist. I didn't tell you you can't have a ridiculous opinion, or that this "ridiculous debate" should be taken off of Newsvine, I simply opined that the debate IS ridiculous, and -- it is.

                          The debate on Newsvine is missing the mark, and that sucks. Instead of turning this against the people who ACTUALLY HOLD AND PERPETUATE THESE VIEWS, you're quibbling with and boo-hooing a liberal magazine which almost certainly DOES NOT HOLD THESE VIEWS.

                          These issues exist. A few days ago, they existed in a dangerous area for Obama: On silly blogs and in email forwards and in the minds of a few @!$%#s who want nothing more than to spread disinformation about Obama. That's the worst possible place for this to be, because those are the sorts of places that plant a seed in the heads of the very people he really needs come voting time.

                          This cover is a clue bomb -- it was dropped on those who don't have a clue, and it has opened up the dialogue. And, as an Obama supporter, for you to want to unring the bell would spell disaster for Obama.

                          R-I-D-I-C-U-L-O-U-S

                          • 4 votes
                          #6.18 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:29 PM EDT
                          Reply
                          OnlyChild

                          It's a good cartoon. It reminds me of Mad magazine. It is satire and it is making fun of the persons who are trying subtly and not so subtly to make us afraid of Obama and his wife. Taken in this light, it's very funny.

                          • 5 votes
                          Reply#7 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:01 AM EDT
                          Ms CYPRAH

                          I agree, OnlyChild, but nothing connected to the media is ever 'only' anything, not with the power and privilege they have to influence public opinion.

                          • 1 vote
                          #7.1 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:18 AM EDT
                          determined0a1

                          not with the power and privilege they have to influence public opinion.

                          Oh, Ms. Cyprah, the New Yorker is not going to beneficiate or damage Obama. If he is "sensitive" to critics he is running for the wrong office.

                          • 4 votes
                          #7.2 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:29 PM EDT
                          Ms CYPRAH

                          Oh, Ms. Cyprah, the New Yorker is not going to beneficiate or damage Obama. If he is "sensitive" to critics he is running for the wrong office.

                          determined0a1, no one who is running for public office can afford to be sensitive to critics. You are right that they would be in the wrong place. But this is a different kind of election, one that has no precedence. So, while people find their feet in best reactions, we will have some reactions that are considered to be over the top as the people involved begin to feel more exposed.

                          • 1 vote
                          #7.3 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:28 PM EDT
                          determined0a1

                          But this is a different kind of election

                          No, this is not a different kind of election and shouldn't be. Obama should not be treated different or w/kid gloves because he is a mix.

                          I never read or heard a harsh reaction from Dr. Condoleeza Rice and she had been attack with cruelty and sadism.

                          This election is normal with the ups and downs.

                          • 5 votes
                          #7.4 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:43 PM EDT
                          Ms CYPRAH

                          This election is normal with the ups and downs.

                          If you really believe that, determined0a1, then I am truly wasting my valuable time with this discussion! jeez.

                          • 1 vote
                          #7.5 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:17 PM EDT
                          Reply
                          Rach-341698

                          That satirical cartoon could have gone in an article inside the magazine - but on the cover?- Come on!!
                          And why are they both painted with white skin? Maybe to avoid racist remarks, because anytime an African-American - or even a half African American is criticized it's suddenly "racist." There's a big difference between what is race and what is religion. White people aren't crying racist everytime McCain is criticized. African Americans I know have more dignity than this. My friends don't think something is wrong with African Americans or any other race because of our heritage. Where are these people coming from? Living in the past won't help us enjoy the strides that have been made in my generation.
                          But I do agree that putting this cartoon on the cover looks like the New Yorker is promoting the ideas it portrays rather than poking fun at the rumors going around. My only hope is that there will be some benefit in opening the dialogue. It was a mean thing to do, especially since there is no basis in fact for it.

                          • 2 votes
                          #8 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:03 AM EDT
                          Ms CYPRAH

                          But I do agree that putting this cartoon on the cover looks like the New Yorker is promoting the ideas it portrays rather than poking fun at the rumors going around.

                          Absolutely, Rach-341698, which goes to the heart of the matter.

                          • 2 votes
                          #8.1 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:20 AM EDT
                          SepticSkeptic

                          That satirical cartoon could have gone in an article inside the magazine - but on the cover?- Come on!!

                          Do you read New Yorker? Did you know they did a cover with Ahmadinejad in a bathtub? Bush and Cheney as the stars of Brokeback Mountain? Bush as Nero? They don't normally have photographs of cows in a pasture, then suddenly whip this out. Political cartoons on their cover is what they do. This isn't out of left field, Rach. Quit foaming at the mouth already.

                          • 4 votes
                          #8.2 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:23 PM EDT
                          Jack Huang

                          Maybe to avoid racist remarks, because anytime an African-American - or even a half African American is criticized it's suddenly "racist." There's a big difference between what is race and what is religion. White people aren't crying racist everytime McCain is criticized. African Americans I know have more dignity than this.

                          Does this also go "to the heart of the matter"?

                          But I do agree that putting this cartoon on the cover looks like the New Yorker is promoting the ideas it portrays rather than poking fun at the rumors going around.

                          Eh, I got the satire immediately, as would anyone marginally familiar in smear tactics employed in this election.

                          • 4 votes
                          #8.3 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:25 PM EDT
                          determined0a1

                          But I do agree that putting this cartoon on the cover looks like the New Yorker is promoting the ideas it portrays rather than poking fun at the rumors going around. My only hope is that there will be some benefit in opening the dialogue. It was a mean thing to do, especially since there is no basis in fact for it.

                          The only point brought in the whole hollyboo is that Obama's supporters are not ready to take over the presidency of the USA. Get Hillary, she is tougher.

                          • 2 votes
                          #8.4 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:31 PM EDT
                          Ms CYPRAH

                          There's a big difference between what is race and what is religion.

                          For your information, there is very little difference between race and religion. One we are born with and the other we acquire as an integral part of our belief system, and both define who we are and wish to be. Many people would die for their religion because if you took that away from them their whole identity would unravel, just as how they cannot jettison their race. It is people who live in denial about the nature of discrimination who would wish to split hairs on these words and pretend they are different in human value and purpose.

                          Jack

                          Eh, I got the satire immediately, as would anyone marginally familiar in smear tactics employed in this election.

                          I have no doubt that, as an articulate professional, you would get whatever the New Yorker is trying to 'prove', but I find it rather puzzling, with your obvious intelligence, that you would assume that everyone else is also like you and can appreciate the 'joke'.

                          • 1 vote
                          #8.5 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:38 PM EDT
                          determined0a1

                          Many people would die for their religion because if you took that away from them their whole identity would unravel, just as how they cannot jettison their race.

                          Fine w/me, but that does not give any right to tag along others in the same journey. If anyone wants to die, great, but do it alone.

                          • 1 vote
                          #8.6 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:45 PM EDT
                          cecil paul

                          My friend the answer lies in History. 400 years of slavery with the worst forms of brutality. Ask the Jews why they are so preoccupied with Anti-Semitism. They will tell you it is because of Genocide and Slavery in Europe and the brutal Inquisition in Spain.

                          • 1 vote
                          #8.7 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:52 PM EDT
                          Jack Huang

                          One we are born with and the other we acquire as an integral part of our belief system, and both define who we are and wish to be. Many people would die for their religion because if you took that away from them their whole identity would unravel, just as how they cannot jettison their race.

                          Sorry, but you can't convert into or out of a race. Try again.

                          I have no doubt that, as an articulate professional, you would get whatever the New Yorker is trying to 'prove', but I find it rather puzzling, with your obvious intelligence, that you would assume that everyone else is also like you and can appreciate the 'joke'.

                          A reader of the New Yorker would be far more inclined to see this as satire than your average simpleton. As for being on a cover that'll lay about unread on a newsstand/coffee table, anyone who sees the cover and thinks there's truth to taking its depiction literally is already beyond help.

                          It is people who live in denial about the nature of discrimination who would wish to split hairs on these words and pretend they are different in human value and purpose.

                          And it's people who know that overgeneralization is the only way to rationalize their opinions who overgeneralize so glibly, ignoring the very nuances they themselves inadvertently point out.

                          • 2 votes
                          #8.8 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:30 AM EDT
                          Ms CYPRAH

                          As for being on a cover that'll lay about unread on a newsstand/coffee table, anyone who sees the cover and thinks there's truth to taking its depiction literally is already beyond help.

                          That might be so, Jack, but those very people are the ones likely to make a difference in an election through sheer numbers!

                          Sorry, but you can't convert into or out of a race. Try again.

                          Agreed, but it still doesn't make religion any less constricting or potent for those who believe.

                          • 1 vote
                          #8.9 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:21 PM EDT
                          Sgt. IronHorse

                          Many people would die for their religion

                          Ms Cyprah, we call them terrorists! Muslim extremist. Suicide bombers. Don't you see why this whole thing COULD be a little unsettling to the American public? Remember 9-11-01?

                          • 1 vote
                          #8.10 - Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:41 PM EDT
                          Ms CYPRAH

                          We also call them Christians, Sgt Ironhorse! There are fanatics in every religion. History has enough gruesome examples.

                          • 1 vote
                          #8.11 - Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:08 PM EDT
                          wmolaw

                          Ms. Cyprah:

                          Some religions seem, currently, to have a hell of a lot more than others.

                          Surely you would agree with that.

                          • 3 votes
                          #8.12 - Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:35 AM EDT
                          Sgt. IronHorse

                          I don't believe I've heard of one single Christian blowing themselves up and taking out 30 or 40 innocent people lately in the news... or EVER for that matter.

                            #8.13 - Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:11 AM EDT
                            Mars313

                            You obviously never heard of the Crusades or Inquisitions. The difference is that Christians don't have the decency to rid the world of themselves when they kill people. They stick around to kill more. It's cute how you think that the Christians are less evil than the Muslims. You have a lot to learn, kid.

                            • 2 votes
                            #8.14 - Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:21 AM EDT
                            wmolaw

                            Mars:

                            I'm sure that neanderthals did the same. Can we discuss the present please? the muslims back then were fricking killers too, and they didn't do it with suicide bombs either.

                            Sgt Pepper:

                            Well, there was that jerk in Oklahoma, and there was the bombing of the Olympics in Atlanta.

                            • 2 votes
                            #8.15 - Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:35 AM EDT
                            Skal

                            Can we discuss the present please?

                            Keep in mind that the present is only a product of the past.

                            • 2 votes
                            #8.16 - Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:41 AM EDT
                            wmolaw

                            Skal:

                            Right, and those who don't, are doomed to repeat, yada yada yada

                            Which is all quite true. So, what lesson do we learn? If we don't fight the muslims now, they will seek to invade and conquer our lands.

                            That okay with you?

                            There are many lessons of the past.

                            • 1 vote
                            #8.17 - Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:58 AM EDT
                            Mars313

                            Can we discuss the present please?

                            Certainly. I guess we can discuss whether or not the Christians and their rampant child abuse is any better than the Muslims and their murder. You're certainly misguided is you think Christianity has any kind of moral high-ground over ANYONE else these days. Either misguided or willingly and blissfully ignorant.

                            • 2 votes
                            #8.18 - Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:24 AM EDT
                            Skal

                            Which is all quite true. So, what lesson do we learn? If we don't fight the muslims now, they will seek to invade and conquer our lands.

                            So we seek to invade and conquer thier lands instead? I've said it a 100 times, someone eventually has to take the high road and hope the other will follow, or become the monster we fear.

                            Just fyi, while it gets real blurry who started what first, last I heard Europeans invaded the Middle E. during the Crusades, not vise versa. And unless I'm mistaken they really haven't "invaded" us since. 9/11 was not an invasion. But we have literally invaded them in Iraq. Justified or not that can be argued, but the fact is in the "present" we've been the aggressor. You should also thank the middle east for the fact that we still have a lot of the knowledge and history from the Greek and Roman civilization. If it wasn't for them most of that would have been lost in the Dark Ages.

                            And since I'm an atheist, I'm doomed to hell no matter who "wins," just stay off my lawn.

                            • 2 votes
                            #8.19 - Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:25 AM EDT
                            Sgt. IronHorse

                            Mars, I'm most certain that it is you that has a lot to learn. We weren't discussing Inquisition or the Crusades. That was fighting terrorism as well though. We're discussing psychos comitting suicide in the name of religion and taking innocent people with them. I dodged IEDs for 18 months. I walked among the civilians that were terrified of the radical extremists. I saw the look on their face every time a bomb went off. Don't hide behind your computer and pretend you have a clue about terrorism. I've been shot twice and stabbed once and that was BEFORE I spent 15 years on the streets fighting crime (that some of you refuse to believe exists). Mars, don't suggest that I have a lot to learn. And I'm not a kid...I've been a grown man for years.

                            • 1 vote
                            #8.20 - Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:41 PM EDT
                            Skal

                            * WARNING SATIRE ON SITE *

                            I've been shot twice and stabbed once and that was BEFORE I spent 15 years on the streets fighting crime

                            Can we discuss the present please?

                            Come on IronHorse, let's keep the discussion focused around the last 5 min, dipping back into history only serves to complicate matters, and produce mental exertion.

                            * SATIRE HAS ENDED *

                            • 2 votes
                            #8.21 - Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:59 PM EDT
                            Ms CYPRAH

                            You obviously never heard of the Crusades or Inquisitions. The difference is that Christians don't have the decency to rid the world of themselves when they kill people. They stick around to kill more. It's cute how you think that the Christians are less evil than the Muslims. You have a lot to learn, kid.

                            Thank you Mars. The past ALWAYS has a bearing on the present because without the past, we would not be here. Every religion has, or had, its fanatics and pointing fingers to feel self righteous simply enables us to be selective while ignoring the pain of those we wilfully exclude.

                            Great satire, Skal, thank you. Proves conclusively that we cannot do without the past in some way.

                            • 1 vote
                            #8.22 - Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:51 PM EDT
                            Skal

                            Thank you Mars.

                            ...

                            do you mean Iron Horse?

                              #8.23 - Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:59 PM EDT
                              Skal

                              And history really doesn't "repeat" so much as rhyme.

                              • 1 vote
                              #8.24 - Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:41 PM EDT
                              wmolaw

                              Skal:

                              So we seek to invade and conquer thier lands instead?

                              Uh, okay. Let's let them just conquer ours, eh. Now THERE is a great idea.

                              Mars:

                              I guess we can discuss whether or not the Christians and their rampant child abuse is any better than the Muslims and their murder.

                              What? You know, you need to read a bit buddy. Muslims are among the worst if not the worst in the world regarding child abuse and slavery. But, gee, that's okay, right.

                              Rampant child abuse? sheesh, where did you get that?

                                #8.25 - Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:47 PM EDT
                                Skal

                                Uh, okay. Let's let them just conquer ours, eh. Now THERE is a great idea.

                                ...how could I have been so stupid. You've made me see the light this day wmolaw. Let's just @!$%#ing nuke EVERYONE!!

                                The whole world is a threat to US interest, so let's just take them out before they inevitably @!$%# us. Sorry Ms C we're still bitter about the whole colonial tax thing, UK will have to go as well.
                                Your simplistic brilliance is a shining beacon to humanity wmolaw.

                                  #8.26 - Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:53 PM EDT
                                  Ms CYPRAH

                                  Sorry Ms C we're still bitter about the whole colonial tax thing, UK will have to go as well.

                                  Ha, ha..I love it. Payback time, is it Skal?

                                  • 2 votes
                                  #8.27 - Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:36 PM EDT
                                  Skal

                                  :P

                                  Ya, though the whole Boston Tea Party thing sucks too... but nuking Boston wouldn't really be in the US's best interest, sorry.

                                  • 1 vote
                                  #8.28 - Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:40 PM EDT
                                  Mars313

                                  We weren't discussing Inquisition or the Crusades.

                                  I know, you were discussing how the Christians are better than the Muslims, as if one murderous delusion is any better than the other.

                                  That was fighting terrorism as well though.

                                  oh really? LOL. you can't just make up definitions for terrorism, it already has a definition. Fighting over Holy Lands is not terrorism. You need a history class or two, I think.

                                  We're discussing psychos comitting suicide in the name of religion and taking innocent people with them.

                                  Oh ok, so it's only "terrorism" when it's suicide killers? General murder is ok though? So since the Christians burned villages, pillaged the locals and raped women, that's fine, but Allah forbid they take their own worthless life?

                                  I dodged IEDs for 18 months. I walked among the civilians that were terrified of the radical extremists. I saw the look on their face every time a bomb went off.

                                  And this means what, exactly? This somehow makes you smarter? You still lack a general knowledge of history. Maybe you should have taken some books.

                                  Don't hide behind your computer and pretend you have a clue about terrorism.

                                  We're not talking about terrorism, we're talking about religious wacko's killing people, that's not the definition of terrorism.

                                  I've been shot twice and stabbed once and that was BEFORE I spent 15 years on the streets fighting crime (that some of you refuse to believe exists).

                                  Damn Rambo, then what are you doing chatting on the net? I got stabbed in 6th grade, what authority does that give me?

                                  Mars, don't suggest that I have a lot to learn. And I'm not a kid...I've been a grown man for years.

                                  I'll suggest what I want. Thanks to our troops I have the right to do that. Don't try to step on someone else's freedom then try to claim some patriotic privilege. I'm sorry, I just assumed that you were young, my mistake. I should know that grown men can be just as delusioned as children.

                                  What? You know, you need to read a bit buddy. Muslims are among the worst if not the worst in the world regarding child abuse and slavery. But, gee, that's okay, right.

                                  A lot of claims, and no proof. Let's see it. It's not common knowledge that Muslims are "the worst in the world". But I'm sure with all your reading, you can back that up.

                                  • 1 vote
                                  #8.29 - Mon Jul 21, 2008 8:47 AM EDT
                                  Reply
                                  MrMajek

                                  For some reason I am not really bothered. "The New Yorker" is a bit above the child-like mind that would actually be swayed by that picture to ignore truth. To me, it would depend on the enclosed article, though a big red circle and slash symbol for NOT would be appreciated.

                                  Let's face it, the racism implied on any level and continued claims that they are Muslims are just for convenience to justify a blanket rejection of them, period. For some reason closed minds have found an avenue where they can openly express their bigotry and it is generally accepted by our society...Muslims attacked us, its OK to distrust anyone you can associate with that. They can't say the "N" word without someone possibly offending someone, but you can say Muslim, and 2/3 of Americans will ignore the stupidity of anything you say after that.

                                  People are too thin-skinned and sensitive these days. We HAVE to say and think these things in order to one day discuss them and mutually move past them. Its keeping it all pent up and shielded that makes people talk in whispers and behind someone's back, and then that turns into a circle of non-communication.-- I LOVE when a White person tells me the latest Black joke. Sometimes they are a bit Witty and TRUE. When it isn't I have been told that my NON-expression speaks volumes and have been told that they won't repeat it again. Not because of intimidation, but either reflection or what we discuss.

                                  I have a coworker that until recently he thought he was a Republican. I know that he is conservative and very religious, but he is also the head of a family. Two years ago when I would slip in my barbs about Bush, the war, and the economy we would have exchanges, but agree to disagree. Now, he actively seeks me out to complain about the same things I told him two years ago, and he has sworn he isn't voting Republican this time.--Then again, it could be that he hates taking his huge truck when we go to lunch and enjoys going in my car with a/c.

                                  • 4 votes
                                  Reply#9 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:28 AM EDT
                                  Ms CYPRAH

                                  Let's face it, the racism implied on any level and continued claims that they are Muslims are just for convenience to justify a blanket rejection of them, period. For some reason closed minds have found an avenue where they can openly express their bigotry and it is generally accepted by our society

                                  Here, here, MrMajek. On the button. Thanks for your little anecdote and the laugh of the day. :o)

                                  • 2 votes
                                  #9.1 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:40 PM EDT
                                  Reply
                                  L. French

                                  My family and I were sitting around the pool at my sisters apartment a couple of weeks ago. Someone called the police and said that a group of rowdy blacks were drinking and cursing and being loud. When they got there they found a eight over 50 black women drinking lemonaide. They laughed and
                                  joined us. But someone made a point of mis-information because we were black. White people decry racism becasue they have never been subjected to it. Its alive and well and the New Yorker just proved it. I don't want to see covers like that with anyone. I am an Obama supporter and this has made my feelings stronger.

                                  • 1 vote
                                  #10 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:44 AM EDT
                                  Skal

                                  White people decry racism becasue they have never been subjected

                                  We're the most hated majority on the planet, let me know how that feels.

                                  • 1 vote
                                  #10.1 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:49 AM EDT
                                  Skal

                                  Let me balance that out a little bit.

                                  I make no excuses for things my race and ancestors have done. There are none, and they should be judged accordingly. But if you think I'm going to sit here and be labeled and held accountable for people that I have no association with except the same skin color, you're simply being hypocritical. The things that white people have done to blacks have been inhuman an monstrous, but I can't make that go away, the only thing that I can do is hold out my hand in brotherhood. If people reject that offering based off of my skin color then well... there's nothing I can really do about that.

                                  • 8 votes
                                  #10.2 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:55 AM EDT
                                  MrMajek

                                  News flash: Whites were only a majority on this continent when they killed the Indians and drove them and Mexicans north and south. NOW...brown is where its at, baby...and don't forget Asians. Whites are the minority, you just have more money and power, but we still like "y'all".

                                  • 1 vote
                                  #10.3 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:16 PM EDT
                                  Mars313

                                  Whites are the minority, you just have more money and power, but we still like "y'all".

                                  In a world like ours today, money and power mean much more than numbers. You are right, worldwide Whites are the minority, yet they control a much larger percentage than they should. I wonder why.

                                  • 1 vote
                                  #10.4 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:26 PM EDT
                                  SepticSkeptic

                                  the Indians and drove them and Mexicans north and south.

                                  Them and Mexicans???????? I haven't heard anything so ignorant in at least ten minutes, and that's saying something, since I have been reading this thread for a while. You think white people drove mexicans out of what is now the United States? Picture Chris Farley saying "OH. MY. GOD!" and you'll have some idea of my reaction to your ignorant statement.

                                  Mexicans are the result of the racial mixing of Spanish invaders and the Indians who lived in what is now Mexico. There was no such thing as a Mexican when white people came to America. You can't drive "north and south" what isn't there.

                                  • 6 votes
                                  #10.5 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:33 PM EDT
                                  MrMajek

                                  Ignorant? You have no idea how Texas and California were "settled", do you?

                                  • 2 votes
                                  #10.6 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:51 PM EDT
                                  Skal

                                  Um yes we do. But then you would need to some how also say that we drove the Canadians out during the French and Indian War. O let's not forget the British as well.. o wait, we're esentially the same race.

                                  This wasn't meant to start a race war or anything, no race is better then another, here in America or anywhere else in the world. Nor should we just assume that we have it worse off then any of the other races.

                                  Whites were only a majority on this continent when they killed the Indians and drove them and Mexicans north and south. NOW...brown is where its at, baby...and don't forget Asians.

                                  It's comments like that that hurt your own cause. Instead of being so worried about "who's better" try instead to help foster a global community by embracing everyone, including whites, even if you feel they wouldn't or haven't do(ne) the same for you.

                                  You are right, worldwide Whites are the minority, yet they control a much larger percentage than they should. I wonder why.

                                  Would you like to kill the Jews next for controling the world's banking system, and having some of the best stand up comedians?... Though it is pretty tough to beat Cat (are there two "t" s?) Williams.

                                  If racial problems are to be solved, at some point someone's going to have to take the high road.

                                  • 4 votes
                                  #10.7 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:06 PM EDT
                                  determined0a1

                                  People are too thin-skinned and sensitive these days

                                  I see a problem ordering black forest or talking about our trip.

                                  I see a problem asking for a black dress in a store.

                                  I see troubles discussing the famous black hole.

                                  Good grief! Obama's supporters are laming their own nominee.

                                  • 2 votes
                                  #10.8 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:34 PM EDT
                                  Skal

                                  *satire*

                                  I see troubles discussing the famous black hole.

                                  Obviously you didn't know astrologers are notoriously racist.

                                  *end satire*

                                  • 2 votes
                                  #10.9 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:48 PM EDT
                                  TypicalWhiteMalefromPa

                                  First off all, thought the cover was hysterical. Always wondered what made Obama above satire, I mean every other President, Pope, God, or leader has been the target of satire at sometime or another. What amazes me, is that the OP here is from England, a country that throughout history has been known for racism. I don't know about you other Americans, but I for one am so tired of hearing negative commentary about our country from those who have really no stake in our election. What I see from the OP, is a black woman from another country who every chance she gets wants too let us know what a racist press and society we have. When the truth be told, in her country they will never see an African Englishman as Prime Minister.

                                  • 4 votes
                                  #10.10 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:58 PM EDT
                                  Skal

                                  Just curious but what is OP?

                                  • 1 vote
                                  #10.11 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:07 PM EDT
                                  TypicalWhiteMalefromPa

                                  Original Poster, the author of the said blog.

                                    #10.12 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:59 PM EDT
                                    Skal

                                    Ooo gotcha. While I understand your... annoyance? I think we should be careful not to dismiss Cyprah's critisim to quickly. Sometimes we need that opinion.

                                    Plus we all comment on other countries problems.

                                    China mistreating Tibet.
                                    Africa's political chaos.
                                    India's caste system.
                                    France never winning a way... :P

                                    • 2 votes
                                    #10.13 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:05 PM EDT
                                    Skal

                                    Correction:
                                    France never winning a war*

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #10.14 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:30 PM EDT
                                    determined0a1

                                    Well, I live in a place that after 10:00 p.m. noises in the motor of the pool bother the neighbors. It's not racial, some people don't have a sense of having a good time and like to spoil it.

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #10.15 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:48 PM EDT
                                    Ms CYPRAH

                                    White people decry racism becasue they have never been subjected to it. Its alive and well and the New Yorker just proved it. I don't want to see covers like that with anyone. I am an Obama supporter and this has made my feelings stronger.

                                    Thanks for that timely input, L French. Until one has experienced such racism first hand, how can one say there is no racism?

                                    Skal

                                    We're the most hated majority on the planet, let me know how that feels.

                                    That is a kind of detached 'hate', not the same as being in the personal firing line of it, day after relentless day. You still have the economic, media and political muscle to do something about it and stave off its effects. You can still call the tune your way, no matter how much that hate is visible. Not the same as being Black in a country with a history of slavery and having to live constantly with that negative legacy of it, racism, which is always under the surface, and without the power to do anything about it.

                                    Mars

                                    In a world like ours today, money and power mean much more than numbers. You are right, worldwide Whites are the minority, yet they control a much larger percentage than they should. I wonder why.

                                    Thank you for that because it really sums it up as to why the two situations are different.

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #10.16 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:49 PM EDT
                                    Ms CYPRAH

                                    If racial problems are to be solved, at some point someone's going to have to take the high road.

                                    Very true, Skal, and it doesn't come through one race denigrating the other and putting out covers like the New Yorker's, whatever the motive! Or are you implying that only Blacks should be getting on that high road as Whites will just continue to do what they have always done? You can't really seek better actions, but from only one section of the community!

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #10.17 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:54 PM EDT
                                    Skal

                                    Cyprah:

                                    Or are you implying that only Blacks should be getting on that high road as Whites will just continue to do what they have always done?

                                    I've been as nice as I can but now you're just trying to put words in my mouth. While I have made a bordline comment or two such as #13, I have called for unity several time in this whole discussion and you continue to try and paint me as a racist. Maybe I could have more careful with what I said and instead wrote "everyone's going to have to take the high road" but I didn't and in respose you decide to nick pick what I've said into some sort of racist remark.

                                    things that white people have done to blacks have been inhuman an monstrous, but I can't make that go away, the only thing that I can do is hold out my hand in brotherhood.

                                    I can't tell you how it feels to be black, I don't know, and I don't pretend to know. But I know how it feels to be white, something that you really can't tell me anything about. So stop trying to paint as someone I'm not.

                                    Very true, Skal, and it doesn't come through one race denigrating the other and putting out covers like the New Yorker's, whatever the motive!

                                    But what if the motive is to show the absurdity of such racist, sexist, religious (what is an -ist word for slandering based on religion?) remarks? I think it's a worthy cause, or at least one to be considered.

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #10.18 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:05 PM EDT
                                    TypicalWhiteMalefromPa

                                    My question too Cyprah is this. Why is it okay too call me and others oppinions on here racist, when you are the one that is bringing up race issue ? I wonder if you know anything about history. Historically and till this day, black on black racism is much more wide spread than white on black. Believe me I see it everyday here in Philly. Let me ask you if John Mc Cain had said what Jessie Jackson had said last week would John Mc cain still have a campaign ? I doubt it, he'd be lynched and ran out of the country. I'am so sick and tired of hearing about race from the black community. You folks want equal treatment, yet you separate the races everytime an issue you don't agree with arises. let me ask you, How many white Miss America Pageant are there ? None, How many white versions of the NAACP are there ? none..What about White History month ? Or Irish American ? Or Italian American? Or Polish ? Or Jamaican ? Or Asian ? Or Native American ? zilch. So tell me what people say they want equality, but yet are always seperating themselves. How can I feel sorry for Obama, when he too plays the part of being different instead of just being an American running for President and deserves the same scrutiny as anyone else regardless of skin color.

                                    • 2 votes
                                    #10.19 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:24 PM EDT
                                    Skal

                                    Obama, when he too plays the part of being different instead of just being an American running for President and deserves the same scrutiny as anyone else regardless of skin color.

                                    I agree with everything except that right there. I believe it's Obama supporters (like myself) who are the ones to blame here, not Obama himself. I believe, or at least hope, that he welcomes criticism. Though I do think he's playing the "black role model" card, which I believe is a good one to play and holds him to even higher standards.

                                    • 2 votes
                                    #10.20 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:31 PM EDT
                                    Ms CYPRAH

                                    How can I feel sorry for Obama, when he too plays the part of being different instead of just being an American running for President and deserves the same scrutiny as anyone else regardless of skin color.

                                    I accept many of the points you make, TWM, and can understand your reasons for stating them. But you have inadvertently negated your own reasoning with this quote. The problem is that Obama is NOT getting the same scrutiny, as you suggested, otherwise he would not be portrayed as a terrorist while McCain is not!

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #10.21 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:43 PM EDT
                                    wmolaw

                                    Ms. Cyprah:

                                    Each candidate have their own crosses to bear.

                                    Obama is black. McCain is white. To "fairly" represent them, should a cartoonist make them the same color?

                                    McCain is being pilloried for his age, should, out of fairness, Obama be pilloried for his relative youth?

                                    This is the way of politics, Ms. Cyprah. When I saw it, I clearly understood it was satire as it was so over the top. Plus, it was the New Yorker. Context is always important.

                                    • 2 votes
                                    #10.22 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:58 PM EDT
                                    Ms CYPRAH

                                    But what if the motive is to show the absurdity of such racist, sexist, religious (what is an -ist word for slandering based on religion?) remarks? I think it's a worthy cause, or at least one to be considered.

                                    Then it should be INSIDE the paper alongside the article, in context to make greater sense, no standing alone in a sensationalist manner to appearing reinforce the very thing they are decrying.

                                    And, Skal, if I thought you were a a racist, we would not have been having a dialogue because one cannot converse with closed minds!

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #10.23 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:10 PM EDT
                                    Ms CYPRAH

                                    When I saw it, I clearly understood it was satire as it was so over the top. Plus, it was the New Yorker. Context is always important.

                                    Whereas, I didn't think it had a context, wmolaw, hence why it appeared so inappropriate.

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #10.24 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:12 PM EDT
                                    TypicalWhiteMalefromPa

                                    Are you kidding me Ms. Cyprah. Let's see, Mc Cain is a war monger, Mc cain is too old, Mc Cain's being a prisoner of war does not make him qualified to be commander in chief. I could go on and on about the negative articles on Mc Cain. Another thing if I may, you don't think that 90% of the African American population voting for Obama is not a racial issue ? If 90% of the white population said they were voting for Mc Cain, all you would hear is how racist America is...Just food for thought. Like I said in an earlier post, if Obama can't stand the heat that comes with the office, then he doesn't have the balls to be president.

                                    • 3 votes
                                    #10.25 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 6:57 PM EDT
                                    katrix

                                    The problem is that Obama is NOT getting the same scrutiny, as you suggested, otherwise he would not be portrayed as a terrorist while McCain is not!

                                    That is because McCain doesn't have a middle name of Hussein and a Muslim father (even though Obama's father wasn't even there for him and he is not a Muslim). It's the ignorant people harping on this issue. A white candidate - or a candidate of any other race - with a Muslim middle name and Muslim father would be getting the same scrutiny - this has nothing to do with race. If Romney had won the Republican nomination, we'd have Mormon bashing going on right now. Kennedy was bashed for being Catholic. Religion trumps race in terms of insanity.

                                    • 4 votes
                                    #10.26 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:05 PM EDT
                                    Skal

                                    Like I said earlier you're confusing Obama supporters for Obama himself.

                                    "Obama supporters (like myself) who are the ones to blame here, not Obama himself. I believe, or at least hope, that he welcomes criticism."

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #10.27 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:10 PM EDT
                                    Skal

                                    And Cyprah:

                                    And, Skal, if I thought you were a a racist, we would not have been having a dialogue because one cannot converse with closed minds!

                                    You do realize that taking the words

                                    "If racial problems are to be solved, at some point someone's going to have to take the high road."

                                    And try to say that it's implying:

                                    "Or are you implying that only Blacks should be getting on that high road as Whites will just continue to do what they have always done?"

                                    Is blatantly misleading from what I was trying to say, yes? YOU may not think I'm a racist but you are trying to imply that I am.

                                    • 3 votes
                                    #10.28 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:24 PM EDT
                                    Ms CYPRAH

                                    Are you kidding me Ms. Cyprah. Let's see, Mc Cain is a war monger, Mc cain is too old, Mc Cain's being a prisoner of war does not make him qualified to be commander in chief. I could go on and on about the negative articles on Mc Cain.

                                    Yes, TWM, I accept that point, but none of those issues are as threatening and scary to Americans as terrorism, and their lies the rub and racism.

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #10.29 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:25 PM EDT
                                    wmolaw

                                    Ms. Cyprah:

                                    So, it is just the fact that the cover is tied to terrorism that bothers you. Is that right?

                                    • 2 votes
                                    #10.30 - Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:49 AM EDT
                                    Ms CYPRAH

                                    Yes, wmolaw, that's it. As I said earlier, how would White America feel to see Bush or the Jews depicted as Hitler? Fine, is it? That is the closest comparison obvious here. It is the politics of fear for commercial ends that bothers me greatly. It's not them satirising Obama per se. That's par for the course in the election. It's the way it is both taken out of context and connected to something extremely fearful purely on a colour basis, that's the point.

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #10.31 - Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:12 PM EDT
                                    wmolaw

                                    Ms. Cyprah:

                                    As I stated before, Bush has been depicted as everything, compared to the worst humans in history.

                                    So, that argument is pretty much out the window. Hell, you see such comparisons here.

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #10.32 - Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:36 AM EDT
                                    Mars313

                                    Wmo:

                                    Bush has a record in office from which to judge him. George W Bush can arguably, but legitimately be compared to Hitler and Nazi Germany. His family is lucky (or privileged) to not have the stigma of the war criminal Prescott Bush who helped Nazi Germany in their crimes. That's a legitimate comparison based on facts.

                                    • 2 votes
                                    #10.33 - Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:44 AM EDT
                                    Ms CYPRAH

                                    Bush has a record in office from which to judge him.

                                    Thanks again, mars, as I also pointed out earlier.

                                    • 2 votes
                                    #10.34 - Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:52 PM EDT
                                    wmolaw

                                    So, Ms. Cyprah:

                                    Anyone with a checkered family past, is subject to being tagged with that past?

                                    Like Fat Teddy?

                                    And, of course, Obama with his muslim father, right?

                                    Aren't you arguing in circles here?

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #10.35 - Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:49 PM EDT
                                    Ms CYPRAH

                                    No, we're not going in circles, wmolaw. The past is for reference, not for residence!

                                    • 2 votes
                                    #10.36 - Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:38 PM EDT
                                    Mars313

                                    Anyone with a checkered family past, is subject to being tagged with that past?

                                    WMO, Bush isn't tagged with this, that's the point. Yet Obama is tagged with his families. We are arguing in circles, but it's only because of your standpoint, not ours. You're cool with Obama being portrayed falsely, because his dad was Muslim. Yet if we try to tag Bush as a Nazi sympathizer, you'd be up in arms about it. Double standard, or just a misunderstanding?

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #10.37 - Mon Jul 21, 2008 8:49 AM EDT
                                    wmolaw

                                    Mars:

                                    Bush isn't tagged with his past?

                                    What, are you kidding me or being purposefully obtuse? All you hear, Prescott Bush, George the first, and on and on and on.

                                    GW is tagged with his past, his family's past, and every other damned thing.

                                    For you to even say that shows such alarming bias and disinformation it shakes me.

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #10.38 - Mon Jul 21, 2008 1:29 PM EDT
                                    Mars313

                                    oh, what a crock of @!$%#. The media NEVER brings up Bush's family ties to the Nazis. He gets a pass on that. If I am wrong, provide me with a film clip of a major network news piece on the possibility that Bush may be a Nazi in disguise. I'll wait...

                                    Bush isn't tagged with his past?

                                    The past that Dubya is judged on is HIS past, specifically his past 7 years. So yes, he is tagged with HIS past, not his Nazi Grandfather's.

                                    I'm sorry your guy is such a @!$%#-up, but making up stuff doesn't help your case. This isn't Fox News, you can't just imagine the facts.

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #10.39 - Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:17 AM EDT
                                    Reply
                                    hlcDeleted
                                    g-lowell

                                    In this article, Ms. Cyprah, you accuse the New Yorker of being racist, when it seems like you are in fact the one who is being racist.

                                    They forgot to add that it was highly offensive, derogatory, biased and incredibly racist

                                    Had the Obamas not been Black, would they have been portrayed in that offensive and derogatory way, no matter what point was being debated?

                                    But how is this fair to Obama and his wife? Two highly intelligent, qualified professionals who have given a lot to their communities, being depicted to the public in such fearful terms simply because of their colour?

                                    All the New Yorker has proven is that when the chips are down, racism lurks menacingly under the media psyche, a biased perspective that is prepared to use any cowardly means at their disposal to instill fear in the minds of ordinary Americans who simply desire a free choice of candidates without being influenced arbitrarily.

                                    Satire is not about cherry picking certain people because of their colour

                                    one which tarred all articulate Black people with the same innuendoes

                                    You seem to say many times that racism was involved in the making of that cartoon, yet no matter how many times you say it it does not make it true. Although you claim racism, you offer no evidence whatsoever that the cartoon is motivated by race. Before you claim racism you should actually have some evidence to back it up.

                                    First, the divisive message it gives out to all Americans that being Black, per se, is anti-American, anti security and pro-terrorist. That Black people are not bona-fide American citizens who also fear for their own safety, but are simply waiting to destroy the world of White America in the form of a pro-terrorist Black president. That is a very powerful, negative and racist message, as though only a White politician or president would be anti-terrorist.

                                    Please, once again, offer at least some evidence that what you say is true. How does the cartoon say that being black is anti American? What evidence do you offer to support your claim that this cartoon is saying that blacks are not full American citizens. To make such bold claims you should have some evidence to back it up, yet you have none.

                                    This article claims racism throughout, yet is itself highly racist.

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #12 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:35 PM EDT
                                    SepticSkeptic

                                    I think I know what's going on. First, she thinks the New Yorker is actually attacking Obama instead of making fun of his attackers.

                                    Then, second, the fact that his color has nothing to do with the cartoon is irrelevant to her. ANY attack on ANY black person, in her mind, is by definition racist. In her mind, the fact that the person being attacked is black is all that is required. Why the person is being attacked doesn't matter to her at all. In her mind, racism has nothing to do with the attacker's motivation, and everything to do with the attacker being white and the victim black. And there is no way to get through to her that her definition of racism is wrong.

                                    • 3 votes
                                    #12.1 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:45 PM EDT
                                    g-lowell

                                    Then, second, the fact that his color has nothing to do with the cartoon is irrelevant to her. ANY attack on ANY black person, in her mind, is by definition racist. In her mind, the fact that the person being attacked is black is all that is required. Why the person is being attacked doesn't matter to her at all. In her mind, racism has nothing to do with the attacker's motivation, and everything to do with the attacker being white and the victim black. And there is no way to get through to her that her definition of racism is wrong.

                                    That sure is the feeling I get from reading this article.

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #12.2 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:59 PM EDT
                                    determined0a1

                                    A little story about racism:

                                    While living overseas a beautiful blond expat fell in love with a black in the US military. We gave her a shower, gifts and she started her trip to America, her first time.

                                    Well, one year later this lady requested to have another opportunity and comeback (she was very efficient) because the black family of his fiancee did not accept her.

                                      #12.3 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:37 PM EDT
                                      Ms CYPRAH

                                      Although you claim racism, you offer no evidence whatsoever that the cartoon is motivated by race. Before you claim racism you should actually have some evidence to back it up.

                                      I did give the evidence, g-lowell. You are the one who is in denial about it. I will repeat it again for your benefit. There has been no White politicians shown as a terrorist in such a negative manner, for whatever reason, thus I will continue to insist that it is racism. As to me not understanding the nature of racism, your patronising perspective knows no bounds! I guess you understand it clearly, which is why you are prepared to excuse racist acts, even when they are staring you in the face so that you can be excused from having to deal with it.

                                      • 1 vote
                                      #12.4 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:01 PM EDT
                                      g-lowell

                                      I did give the evidence, g-lowell. You are the one who is in denial about it. I will repeat it again for your benefit. There has been no White politicians shown as a terrorist in such a negative manner, for whatever reason, thus I will continue to insist that it is racism.

                                      You claim that the simple lack of The New Yorker having a white politician in a similar cartoon makes it racism. However, I do not follow that logic. Please tell me what is racist about the cartoon.

                                      Let's just assume for a second that the creator of this cartoon was attempting to discredit Obama. If that is the case, how is that cartoon attacking Obama's race? If we take the aforementioned assumption to be true, it would be an attack on Obama's motivations in running for President, not his race.

                                      Let's just make another assumption for the sake of argument though, that this cartoon is racist and targeted at Obama. You still fail to show how that would mean that the cartoon is somehow saying that all black people are terrorists, which you claimed.

                                      As to me not understanding the nature of racism, your patronising perspective knows no bounds! I guess you understand it clearly, which is why you are prepared to excuse racist acts, even when they are staring you in the face so that you can be excused from having to deal with it.

                                      Please do not put words in my mouth. I never once said you do not understand the nature of racism, I only said that in this instance you are crying wolf.

                                      And no, I do not excuse racist acts when they are staring me in the face, which is why I commented on your article.

                                      • 2 votes
                                      #12.5 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:41 PM EDT
                                      katrix

                                      If this were truly an attack on Obama, which it wasn't, it would have been attacking his supposedly being a Muslim and a non-patriot. The cover had nothing to do with his race except poke fun at blacks who see him as too white, and whites (and some blacks) who see him as too close to the radical blacks like Wright and Jackson (Michelle's afro). Nothing else even came close to race.

                                      • 3 votes
                                      #12.6 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:08 PM EDT
                                      Jack Huang

                                      Let's just assume for a second that the creator of this cartoon was attempting to discredit Obama. If that is the case, how is that cartoon attacking Obama's race?

                                      Obviously, only black people fist-bump, and all black people wear turbans. Duh.

                                      Let's just make another assumption for the sake of argument though, that this cartoon is racist and targeted at Obama. You still fail to show how that would mean that the cartoon is somehow saying that all black people are terrorists, which you claimed.

                                      Well, that comes from Michelle's gun. That's a black gun now.

                                      As to me not understanding the nature of racism, your patronising perspective knows no bounds! I guess you understand it clearly, which is why you are prepared to excuse racist acts, even when they are staring you in the face so that you can be excused from having to deal with it.

                                      Just as you excuse yourself from nuance or a modicum of thought by simply slapping the racist label on things like the New Yorker.

                                      • 2 votes
                                      #12.7 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:39 AM EDT
                                      TypicalWhiteMalefromPa

                                      Ms CYPRAH, apparently you believe Obama is like a breath of fresh air, but see too me that breath of fresh air is blowing smoke, and is not all he claims to be. Infact it appears he has many fears, and is terrified of any criticism, and if anyone does question him, then that person or persons are considered racist. I'll give you a lil list of what we Americans according to the Messiah, we are not allowed to ask him about.

                                      With Obama we started out, we couldn't talk about his big ears 'cause that made him nervous. We've gone from that to this: Not only can we not mention his ears...

                                      We can't talk about his mother.

                                      We can't talk about his father.

                                      We can't talk about his grandmother unless he does, brings her up as a "typical white person."

                                      We can't talk about his wife, can't talk about his preacher, can't talk about his terrorist friends, can't talk about his voting record, can't talk about his religion.

                                      We can't talk about appeasement.

                                      We can't talk about color; we can't talk about lack of color.

                                      We can't talk about race. We can't talk about bombers and mobsters who are his friends. We can't talk about schooling. We can't talk about his name, "Hussein."

                                      We can't talk about his lack of experience. Can't talk about his income. Can't talk about his flag pin.

                                      It started out we just couldn't talk about his ears.

                                      Now we can't say anything about him.

                                      Hmmm I wonder if the same rules applied too Hillary, would we even be talking about Obama ? The dude has no backbone or balls and should never even smell the front door of the White House. He entered the race for President of his own free will, and deserves every bit of scrutiny as any other candidate.

                                      • 4 votes
                                      #12.8 - Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:30 AM EDT
                                      Sgt. IronHorse

                                      Thanks for that timely input, L French. Until one has experienced such racism first hand, how can one say there is no racism?

                                      Ma'am, you make it sound as though black people are the only ones that have ever suffered racism, discrimination or "domestic turbulence" of any kind. Uh, HELLO! I'm a blanket-ass redskin! You haven't heard me whining for ONE SECOND about not being treated fairly. you think I haven't heard the "jokes" about that? But it's all good. Some people take it in stride and some are cry-babies.

                                      IronHorse*

                                      • 2 votes
                                      #12.9 - Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:57 PM EDT
                                      urbane gorilla

                                      TWMfP,

                                      we can talk about issues.

                                      • 2 votes
                                      #12.10 - Thu Jul 17, 2008 7:11 PM EDT
                                      Ms CYPRAH

                                      He entered the race for President of his own free will, and deserves every bit of scrutiny as any other candidate.

                                      TWP, I am sure Obama would not object to scrutiny, but when one has a barrage of nothing but criticisms coming at one, that is NOT scrutiny. That is just personal bashing based on fear which simply obscures the real issues. It does not matter who his mother, father, sister brother is. He has no influence over that. He did not choose when to be born and to whom. But it does matter who he is and where he is heading. That's what the future of America is about.

                                      I did not see anyone harping on who Hillary's mother, father or any relative is. That was just assumed as given because she is White and middle class. But because Obama is mixed, it is then seen as an issue? Why? Unless to fearful prejudiced minds as a kind blame for their own fears and bias.

                                      • 1 vote
                                      #12.11 - Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:21 PM EDT
                                      wmolaw

                                      Gads, Ms. Cyprah:

                                      Hillary's parents were unremarkable.

                                      Candidates are parsed to the greatest extent possible.

                                      "Scrutiny" should be read as "discovering whatever we can to beat the person politically."

                                      Man, this is just over sensitivity. Obama is gonna be scrutinized, better get used to it.

                                      • 1 vote
                                      #12.12 - Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:39 AM EDT
                                      Ms CYPRAH

                                      Hillary's parents were unremarkable.

                                      According to whose yardstick? White or Black? Left or Right? It all depends on the motives of those doing the assessing.

                                      • 1 vote
                                      #12.13 - Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:54 PM EDT
                                      Sgt. IronHorse

                                      Ms. C, that's a valid point. By whose standards are we discussing the value of her parents, mine, your's or Hillary's?

                                        #12.14 - Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:48 PM EDT
                                        Ms CYPRAH

                                        The same standards as those employed by Obama's critics who are harping on his parents, I guess.

                                        • 1 vote
                                        #12.15 - Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:39 PM EDT
                                        Reply
                                        Skal

                                        I really really really want the creator of this cover to be black. I know that's a terrible thing to say but the irony over this whole conversation would be awesome.

                                        • 4 votes
                                        #13 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:25 PM EDT
                                        Ms CYPRAH

                                        I really really really want the creator of this cover to be black. I know that's a terrible thing to say but the irony over this whole conversation would be awesome.

                                        That won't prove anything, Skal. I once turned down being a columnist for the Mail on Sunday, a very lucrative post which would have made me rich and famous, when I realised that they wanted me to write for them in order to say racist things to fellow Blacks which their White writers could not get away with. Sick. Coming from an articulate Black person, giving life to their words and perspectives, that would have justified their own racist stance.

                                        My guess is that the cartoonist is White because part of the problem with the media is the gross absence of diversity in the staffing, which ensures that a diverse readership keeps getting more of the same biased, narrow and monocultural perspectives.

                                        • 1 vote
                                        #13.1 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:09 PM EDT
                                        Skal

                                        when I realised that they wanted me to write for them in order to say racist things to fellow Blacks which their White writers could not get away with

                                        ya that's actually a really hard problem we're dealing with when it comes to comics. what can a black comic say that a white one can't? are we allowed to make fun of our own race but no one elses? or like dave chappel can we make fun of everyone equally? it's a hard line to fine.

                                        • 2 votes
                                        #13.2 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:13 PM EDT
                                        katrix

                                        Skal, check out Curtis in the Washington Post. It's a great comic - and they even had a strip where Curtis came home and told his dad that kids teased him for having an Oreo for a father. His dad tole him to bring on the milk. The author gets right down to it sometimes. Boondocks is another good one, although I think the author is on hiatus.

                                        And yes, I agree that no white author would have been able to get away with some of those things. They weren't racist but would have been perceived as such coming from someone of another race. And probably by Jackson and Sharpton anyway.

                                        • 3 votes
                                        #13.3 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:13 PM EDT
                                        Skal

                                        Curtis.. that sounds familiar but I can't recall it.

                                        The Boondocks is pure genius.

                                        And while I didn't like Chris Rock at first upon further review he's pretty amazing.

                                        Though my personal favorite has to be Lewis Black, but I don't think he ever touches the race card.

                                          #13.4 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:28 PM EDT
                                          Sgt. IronHorse

                                          Regarding the reference to Dave Chappelle and Chris Rock, I LOVE these two guys. Yes, granted, they nail everyone equally, it's common knowledge that the black comics can get by with volumes more than white comics can when it comes to the racial issue. Even Carlos Mencia tags everyone nicely. But not Lewis Black or any of his kind. When "people of color" do it, it's funny. A white person does it and it's racism. The NAACP, Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton would crucify a white person for spouting just a fraction of what these guys pull. It's the age old dilemma. The double standard. As a redskin I couldn't care less one way or the other. I just say what you're thinking. Don't get mad.

                                          Nea'ese,

                                          IronHorse*

                                          • 1 vote
                                          #13.5 - Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:55 PM EDT
                                          Brian Ford

                                          But not Lewis Black or any of his kind. When "people of color" do it, it's funny. A white person does it and it's racism.

                                          Yes, because we know the white creators of South Park don't skewer everyone. Or Mel Brooks. Or Sarah Silverman.

                                          Do some research before commenting.

                                          • 4 votes
                                          #13.6 - Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:42 AM EDT
                                          wmolaw

                                          Brian:

                                          Do you really, really believe that Blazing Saddles could be produced today?

                                          No way, not in a million years. Hell, the show it on tv now, and the "N" word is bleeped out!

                                          In short, they take all of the satire out of it. It destroys the film, and the purpose behind those scenes.

                                          • 3 votes
                                          #13.7 - Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:14 AM EDT
                                          Brian Ford

                                          Hell, the show it on tv now, and the "N" word is bleeped out!

                                          On regular TV, of course it is. It stands if it's shown on premium channels, though. Either way, that still leaves South Park and any number of white comics who push racial boundaries.

                                          Silverman caused a brief controversy after using the ethnic slur "chink" in an interview on the July 11, 2001, episode of Late Night with Conan O'Brien. In the interview, Silverman explained that a friend had advised her on how to avoid jury duty by writing a racial slur on the selection form, "something inappropriate, like 'I hate chinks'". However, Silverman said that she ultimately decided that she did not want to be thought of as a racist, so she said, "I wrote 'I love chinks' – and who doesn't?" Silverman said that the joke satirizes the racist thought process.

                                          Silverman has since turned the complaint into grist for her stand-up act, saying that the experience helped teach her the important lesson that racism is bad: "And I mean bad, like in that black way."

                                          At any rate, yeah -- I think blazing saddles could get made today. Again, the South Park movie (albeit a few years out) has a sequence in which the army unveils "operation get behind the darky" and many of the jokes in that movie are well beyond Mel Brooks.

                                          • 2 votes
                                          #13.8 - Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:28 AM EDT
                                          wmolaw

                                          Brian:

                                          Well, we disagree. South Park is a completely different genre.

                                          No way would a satirical movie like Blazing Saddles be made nowadays, impossible.

                                          • 1 vote
                                          #13.9 - Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:56 AM EDT
                                          Brian Ford

                                          Also of interest -- as an observation -- you don't like that the "N word" is bleeped out on television, yet you chose to bleep it out in your reference to it not being able to be uttered on TV.

                                          I'm of the belief that -- when making a reference to something -- we should shy away from self-censoring, but I just find it especially interest in the context of this discussion.

                                          For instance, Ms. Cyprah writes out "@!$%#" on her article about Jesse Jackson, but I know of at least one Newsviner who doesn't believe it's ever appropriate to use the word, even in the context of a discussion about the ramifications about using the word.

                                          Interesting, the power it continues to hold.

                                          • 3 votes
                                          #13.10 - Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:17 PM EDT
                                          wmolaw

                                          Brian:

                                          Frankly, was concerned that my post would be deleted.

                                          Otherwise, have no problem using the word in that context.

                                          • 2 votes
                                          #13.11 - Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:27 PM EDT
                                          urbane gorilla

                                          Sgt Iron Horse, it's not a double standard - not yet - given a social power structure that is still very white. The small knocking the great down a peg is funny; the converse is just mean.

                                          • 2 votes
                                          #13.12 - Thu Jul 17, 2008 7:10 PM EDT
                                          Ms CYPRAH

                                          But not Lewis Black or any of his kind. When "people of color" do it, it's funny. A white person does it and it's racism.

                                          There is a simple reason for that, Sgt Ironhorse. Think of the family. People within a specific family who share similar experiences can see the joke on each other. They can laugh at themselves because they understand the context. However, if an outsider suddenly came in and started referring to it, that family would be none too pleased because the context would have become obscured in a general perception. Hence why certain things are not really acceptable across racial boundaries.

                                          Urbane Gorilla puts it succinctly:

                                          The small knocking the great down a peg is funny; the converse is just mean.

                                          It's all a matter of context and perception.

                                          • 2 votes
                                          #13.13 - Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:26 PM EDT
                                          Ms CYPRAH

                                          Brian and wmolaw:
                                          I have a simple test of relevance and appropriateness when there are thorny semantic issues involved. If the context is deliberately insulting or abusive, then I would delete that comment for words like '@!$%#' etc. However, if it is part of a valid discussion to raise awareness, to inform, to discuss or to explore, I do not see why any word should be censored. How on earth do we learn, in that case? Certainly not by treading on eggshells in fear of upsetting all and sundry. That is false sensitivity which gives credence to silly pretence while ignoring the historical context.

                                          Thanks for both your input. It was enlightening for me.

                                          By the way, I LOVE Blazing Saddles. Must have seen it tons of times.

                                          • 2 votes
                                          #13.14 - Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:34 PM EDT
                                          Sgt. IronHorse

                                          Hmmm... as a minority myself I have a hard time accepting the " small knocking down the great" theory. Funny how we grew up playing "cowboys and indians" and it was never a big deal. If anyone had played "slave-trader and africans" it would have been TOTALLY out of line. It's a double standard...plain and simple. What's good for one is not good for all.

                                          • 2 votes
                                          #13.15 - Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:00 AM EDT
                                          wmolaw

                                          Sgt Ironhorse:

                                          Good point, really good point.

                                          Damn, slave traders and africans.

                                          Of course, many of the slave traders would have to be muslim or blacks themselves to be historically accurate.

                                          • 2 votes
                                          #13.16 - Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:51 PM EDT
                                          Reply
                                          determined0a1

                                          GWB has to leave an envelope for President Obama saying this more or less:

                                          Laugh because it's a very lonely job even when you have so many "ants" working for you.

                                          p.s. We are ready for Obama but Obama's camp is not ready for the job.

                                          • 1 vote
                                          Reply#14 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:39 PM EDT
                                          Ms CYPRAH

                                          We are ready for Obama but Obama's camp is not ready for the job.

                                          The one think that America certainly isn't ready for yet, is a Black president. Hence all this naked fear surfacing daily in one form or another!

                                          • 1 vote
                                          #14.1 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:11 PM EDT
                                          determined0a1

                                          Ms. Cyphran,

                                          The Senator Obama is not naive or he wants sympathy?.

                                          (deleted)

                                          At the end of the day he wants our votes, he wants that we swallow his baloney and then....bye..

                                          • 2 votes
                                          #14.2 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 6:04 PM EDT
                                          katrix

                                          The one think that America certainly isn't ready for yet, is a Black president.

                                          I'm not quite sure where you got this impression, since you don't live here. We weren't ready for Jackson with his wanting to divide us, and Sharpton is even worse. But I don't understand why, when every candidate is always pilloried, you are so upset that Obama gets satirized and called out in the press as others have always been. Is he supposed to get a break because he's the first real black candidate we've had? If Hillary had been the nominee, should she have been given a break as the first real female candidate? Should the senior citizens be up in arms because people say McCain is too old?

                                          • 4 votes
                                          #14.3 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:16 PM EDT
                                          Jack Huang

                                          Should the senior citizens be up in arms because people say McCain is too old?

                                          Well, not doing that is understandable, since McCain can't raise his arms. *ducks*

                                          • 5 votes
                                          #14.4 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:42 AM EDT
                                          Ms CYPRAH

                                          I do not want any special treatment of Obama. I simply hope that the denial about covert or subconscious racism in America would lessen. There is a lot that isn't understood by many people about the power of racism and how it works and it is terribly sad when one sees it in action, yet it is excused as 'acceptable' by mainly those of another colour and with the power to change the situation. Exceedingly depressing.

                                          But if that is acceptable to your society, who am I to dissent?

                                          • 2 votes
                                          #14.5 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:38 PM EDT
                                          Sgt. IronHorse

                                          "I simply hope that the denial about covert or subconscious racism in America would lessen."

                                          Once again... the issue is NOT his race. We don't care if the guy is green with red pokey-dots. It's his OVERT and CONSCIOUS ties with Islam. The man CONSCIOUSLY TOOK a muslim name. Now in my 15 years as a cop I learned to trust my gut instinct. That meant, in short, "if it waddles like a duck and quacks like a duck.......IT AIN'T A CHICKEN!"

                                          • 1 vote
                                          #14.6 - Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:01 PM EDT
                                          Jack Huang

                                          I do not want any special treatment of Obama. I simply hope that the denial about covert or subconscious racism in America would lessen.

                                          Oh please. "Covert racism"? What, are racists staging black ops (oh shoot, I said "black"!) against minorities?

                                          Equal treatment doesn't mean that whenever something depicting Obama is bothersome to a person, they can simply yell "Racism!" and somehow presume to demand a clone of the thing depicting McCain.

                                          So yes, you do want special treatment. From one Obama supporter to another, you want Obama treated with kid gloves.

                                          There is a lot that isn't understood by many people about the power of racism and how it works and it is terribly sad when one sees it in action

                                          Like when someone across the big water assumes flagrantly horrible racism simply because two black people are portrayed.

                                          But if that is acceptable to your society, who am I to dissent?

                                          Awww, cute strawman. You're the one who up and decided to make this about racism, to consciously and purposefully ignore the satire in it for the sake of "OMFG! It's, like, so racist! That's bad, mmkay?!"

                                          Satire is not the new slavery. You would do well to learn that.

                                          We don't care if the guy is green with red pokey-dots.

                                          Erm... actually, I wouldn't vote for a green, red-dotted President. I don't want the diseases that cause that.

                                          • 1 vote
                                          #14.7 - Thu Jul 17, 2008 1:02 PM EDT
                                          Ms CYPRAH

                                          Satire is not the new slavery. You would do well to learn that.

                                          From the tone of your response, it is clear you are not really sure of the the purpose of satire, Jack, otherwise you would not be sounding so superior about the possibility of inherent racism. Satire is not meant to be funny. Its real purpose, as one writer succinctly puts it:

                                          (Satire) holds up a mirror to society to teach us the error of our ways. But in order to teach, there must be an audience that is willing to learn. Some will laugh--believing that its satirical aim has hit the bulls eye. Some will be offended or outraged, feeling the scarlet burn of discrimination YET AGAIN!!. Sadly, although it may not have been the intent of The New Yorker, some will feel that their most biased views have been validated. Certainly the latter group will not bother reading the 1500 page article within the magazine.

                                          That is what it is all about. The mirror to society, in this case, was also used for sensationalism and commercial ends, hence why it ended up on the cover, detached from the accompanying article, and without any words at all. That is simply wrong.

                                          • 1 vote
                                          #14.8 - Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:46 PM EDT
                                          urbane gorilla

                                          What, are racists staging black ops (oh shoot, I said "black"!)

                                          gawd, Jack, I just laughed root beer out my nose! (note to self: newsvine & root beer do not go together. . .)

                                          • 2 votes
                                          #14.9 - Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:42 PM EDT
                                          Reply
                                          Highfalutin

                                          ! -- Is This Racist or Wot?

                                          Wot.

                                          • 4 votes
                                          Reply#15 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:08 PM EDT
                                          Ms CYPRAH

                                          I love it, Highfalutin. Thanks for dropping by to clarify that so succinctly. :o)

                                          • 1 vote
                                          #15.1 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:12 PM EDT
                                          Highfalutin

                                          np Ms CYPRAH. Truth be told, when I first saw the cover center of this controversy, I thought "anti-Islam". I consider anti-Islam sentiment to be bigoted, not racist, except perhaps in some modern definition. After reading many comments and hearing what bloggers have to say, I've come to a realization and a conclusion. The realization was that Michelle Obama was parodied as a black activist, not a muslim extremist as I thought. Oops, my bad ... there go those stereotypes again. The conclusion is that The New Yorker overstated its intention in publishing said cover ... better to go with the 'op-ed' cartoon and discern what the public thought of a minor publication than to go head first onto the newsstand with such an artistic broadside.

                                          Quick, editors of the New Yorker! Retract the cover, print a replacement with Jessie Jackson's picture in the fire.

                                          • 1 vote
                                          #15.2 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:53 PM EDT
                                          Reply
                                          Aunk (The Cultural Health Guy)

                                          Hetep and Respect Mrs. C, Talk about Cultural Poisoning. WoW
                                          W

                                          This is a disgrace from one of the "respected" mags in my home town. Consider my subscription canceled. The New Yorker is now in the same category as the notoriously racist New York Post. This will be the last time in life, that I mention the name of this enemy of African Americans magazine.

                                          • 2 votes
                                          Reply#16 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:22 PM EDT
                                          Skal

                                          Have you read the other comments on this article?

                                          What if the New Yorker wasn't being racist at all but merely pointing out the absurdity of the racism of others?

                                          • 3 votes
                                          #16.1 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:26 PM EDT
                                          Ms CYPRAH

                                          What if the New Yorker wasn't being racist at all but merely pointing out the absurdity of the racism of others?

                                          Keep pointing out that little chestnut, Skal. You might even come to believe it yourself.

                                          Thanks for stopping by, Aunk. Hetep and Respect to you too. Good for you on the subscription. If you keep supporting people who seek to denigrate their readers, you will simply get more of the same, and paid for by your money too!

                                          • 1 vote
                                          #16.2 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:15 PM EDT
                                          Skal

                                          Keep pointing out that little chestnut, Skal. You might even come to believe it yourself.

                                          To late, it's true. We can debate on whether they succeeded or not, but it is true, they did intend for it to be taken that way. This was not meant to be racist.

                                          • 3 votes
                                          #16.3 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:23 PM EDT
                                          Skal

                                          The artist's comments on his work.

                                          http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/07/13/barry-blitt-addresses-his_n_112432.html

                                          • 4 votes
                                          #16.4 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:51 PM EDT
                                          katrix

                                          Skal, people will see the cover and make of it what they will. I still think only the ignorant voters will take it the wrong way, and it's too late for them anyway. It wasn't meant to be racist and those who take it that way need to learn about how satire works.

                                          • 2 votes
                                          #16.5 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:23 PM EDT
                                          Skal

                                          Agreed, let's not dumb it down for the rest of us.

                                          • 2 votes
                                          #16.6 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:29 PM EDT
                                          Jack Huang

                                          Keep pointing out that little chestnut, Skal. You might even come to believe it yourself.

                                          Oh get off it. You yourself said to me (in a comment far up the page) that I, as an "articulate professional", would get the satire, but the typical bumpkin wouldn't.

                                          So obviously, you do see the satire in the work. Stop pretending you're stupid for ignorant brownie points.

                                          • 3 votes
                                          #16.7 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:45 AM EDT
                                          Ms CYPRAH

                                          So obviously, you do see the satire in the work. Stop pretending you're stupid for ignorant brownie points.

                                          Not being armed with your perception, Jack, NO, I do not see the satire, did not see it when it was first spotted, nor did I appreciate it. I am a Brit, remember? Different kind of 'jokes'. I try not to make mine at other people's expense.

                                          • 1 vote
                                          #16.8 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:42 PM EDT
                                          Skal

                                          I am a Brit, remember? Different kind of 'jokes'. I try not to make mine at other people's expense.

                                          ...what about the French?

                                          • 2 votes
                                          #16.9 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:04 PM EDT
                                          Ms CYPRAH

                                          What about them, Skal? Have I missed something there?

                                          • 1 vote
                                          #16.10 - Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:49 PM EDT
                                          Reply
                                          truthlover

                                          I too find the cartoon cover goes too far... maybe it was intended as satire but it also celebrates and reinforces some of the ridiculous criticism out there.

                                          Having said that, I must disagree with the comment in Ms. Cyprah's article. In particular, I don't think the cartoon supports her claim:

                                          First, the divisive message it gives out to all Americans that being Black, per se, is anti-American, anti security and pro-terrorist.

                                          I think all the terrorist satire is about Obama's middle name and his not wearing an American flag pin his lapel at all times. If MLK were alive and young enough to run for president, I don't think you'd see a cartoon of this sort unless he had tried to explain, as Ron Paul has, the motivations of the terrorists..

                                          • 2 votes
                                          Reply#17 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:27 PM EDT
                                          Skal

                                          I guess, I mean I disagree that it goes too far, but at least you see its intent. How do you think it celebrates? I saw it as ridiculing it.

                                            #17.1 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:41 PM EDT
                                            Ms CYPRAH

                                            I too find the cartoon cover goes too far... maybe it was intended as satire but it also celebrates and reinforces some of the ridiculous criticism out there.

                                            Precisely, truthlover, because of its sensationalist stance. It then loses all credibility.

                                            • 1 vote
                                            #17.2 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:17 PM EDT
                                            Reply
                                            Angela A.

                                            I absolutely Agree!!

                                            "Shame on the New Yorker for stooping to such gutter politics."

                                            • 1 vote
                                            Reply#18 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:45 PM EDT
                                            Skal

                                            Really? They're "stooping" I thought they were looking down upon the neo-cons and painting a picture to show the neo-cons own absurdity.

                                            • 3 votes
                                            #18.1 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:56 PM EDT
                                            katrix

                                            It's definitely ridiculing the idiots who have fallen for some of the rumors and other ignorant things going around about Obama. I don't think you can just lump neo-cons into that category, though - there are liberal blacks who say he's acting "too white," for one thing.

                                            • 1 vote
                                            #18.2 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:13 PM EDT
                                            Skal

                                            True, though I never really understood that statement "too white." They say it like it's a bad thing...

                                            I think I just see neo-cons as the more extreme Republicans who I'm seeing direct the smears against Obama.

                                              #18.3 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:17 PM EDT
                                              katrix

                                              True, though I never really understood that statement "too white." They say it like it's a bad thing...

                                              It mostly comes from the poorer, uneducated blacks, I think - or those (like Jesse Jackson) who claim to speak for them. It's as if a black man who is intelligent, articulate, educated, supports his family, etc. and thinks if you are a parent, you have responsibilities that you need to live up to, is selling them out.

                                              I see the same thing from poorer, uneducated whites, directed at white people who have educations, have good jobs, don't drink all the time, and so forth. It's called gettin' above your raisin' - as if you're being disrespectful to your family by aspiring to make more of yourself than did the people you grew up with.

                                              I also see it in those who slam Obama as being "elite" - as many comments on NV have pointed out, those people are actually complimenting him and don't know it. If they think he's better than average, all the more reason for them to vote for him, wouldn't you think?

                                              • 3 votes
                                              #18.4 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:47 PM EDT
                                              Ms CYPRAH

                                              Great comment, katrix, thank you.

                                              • 1 vote
                                              #18.5 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:19 PM EDT
                                              Reply
                                              dotherightthing911

                                              New Yorker Magazine has done this country a great service by publishing the controversial cartoon of presidential candidate Barack Hussein Obama and his wife. Michelle. We must all be grateful for freedom of the press. True or false, satire or racist, New York Magazine has done their duty by opening American's eyes simply to the possibliity of silent jihad. Google the term "silent jihad". Find out about it. Wikipedia Obama. Find out about him. Never forget 9/11. Be vigilant. Ask this and every presidential candidate from now on what are his or her views on killing (i.e. abortion, death penalty, etc.)? What are his or her views on the defense budget (i.e. cut spending and virtually disarm the country)? What are his or her convictions? What is his or her background? Who raised him or her? What religious and/or political beliefs did his parents have? Get the idea? Don't get sidetracked by fears of other things blind you, America. Especially when you are feeling vulnerable by the present economy. We must hang in there, conserve our resources, save gas, tighten our belts and stick together and stop accusing each other of being racist or whatever and fight the REAL enemy----TERRORISM!

                                              • 1 vote
                                              Reply#19 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:31 PM EDT
                                              Skal

                                              While I agree with you we must also become aware of our own contributions to terrorism such as the financing of milita groups during the cold war, and our economic oppression of south american countries. Point the finger first at us, and work to solve our problems before we address other peoples problems.

                                              • 1 vote
                                              #19.1 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:37 PM EDT
                                              Ms CYPRAH

                                              True or false, satire or racist, New York Magazine has done their duty by opening American's eyes simply to the possibliity of silent jihad.

                                              There we go, the very point my article is trying to make about how some members of the American public will choose to see that cartoon, and why it is confirming those biased perspectives! :o(

                                              • 1 vote
                                              #19.2 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:21 PM EDT
                                              Skal

                                              some members of the American public will choose to see that cartoon, and why it is confirming those biased perspectives!

                                              But some (hopefully more then the others) will see it for what it is and actually get it. It's a sad day when we have to dum down everything we say just to make sure we don't offend people.

                                              That's why all of the great books like Huckle Berry Finn (sp?), To Kill A Mocking Bird, Lord of the Flies, etc. are being banned. I'm just getting sick of it.

                                                #19.3 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:27 PM EDT
                                                wmolaw

                                                Ms Cyprah:

                                                If you use the prejudiced and bigoted as support for your assertions, then ANY assertion made by ANY person, on ANY subject can be supported.

                                                Sorry, that just doesn't fly.

                                                Now this I agree with:

                                                But some (hopefully more then the others) will see it for what it is and actually get it. It's a sad day when we have to dum down everything we say just to make sure we don't offend people.

                                                That's why all of the great books like Huckle Berry Finn (sp?), To Kill A Mocking Bird, Lord of the Flies, etc. are being banned. I'm just getting sick of it.

                                                I am as well. It seems that race/religion/political correctness is actually minimizing our learning curve when we should be seeking to expand it.

                                                • 3 votes
                                                #19.4 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:04 PM EDT
                                                Ms CYPRAH

                                                I don't believe any books should be banned at all. That's going a little too far because we can only learn through history, not pretend it never happened! That denial again. :o(

                                                • 1 vote
                                                #19.5 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:18 PM EDT
                                                katrix

                                                Ms Cyprah, I still don't see how you can feel that this cover is an attack on blacks more than Muslims. I see it as satire, ridiculing the stupid attacks on Obama, and can understand that you may not feel that way. But it ridicules those who think Obama is a Muslim and unpatriotic far more than it does those who think he is too black.

                                                Where is the outrage for the racist treatment against Muslims, if you truly see this as an attack against Obama?

                                                • 2 votes
                                                #19.6 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:31 PM EDT
                                                cecil paul

                                                Would the New Yorker be racist by putting on their front page a picture of John MC Cain with a Confederate Flag dressed in the robe of a racist Clansman and Cindy MC Cain with a lynch-rope in her hands. Then in the background you put up a picture of George Wallace. How would the Republicans react to this? I look forward to the next front page cartoon.The New Yorker did Obama, lets see how they will depict MC Cain.

                                                • 1 vote
                                                #19.7 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:44 PM EDT
                                                wmolaw

                                                Cecil Paul:

                                                This isn't tit for tat. Sorry, but it isn't.

                                                Ms. Cyprah:

                                                Glad to hear that, though books are "banned" due to perceived racism or how they will affect minority readers in this PC day and age.

                                                Is that a good thing? Does that reduce racism, or increase it?

                                                • 1 vote
                                                #19.8 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:52 AM EDT
                                                Ms CYPRAH

                                                Where is the outrage for the racist treatment against Muslims, if you truly see this as an attack against Obama?

                                                Katrix, in the lack of any words at all to point to any intentions. It is simply a cartoon in the poorest form in its present state.

                                                • 1 vote
                                                #19.9 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
                                                katrix

                                                Obama has now said that he sees it as in insult to Muslims - he didn't say anything about feeling it insulted blacks.

                                                  #19.10 - Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:32 AM EDT
                                                  Ms CYPRAH

                                                  He wouldn't, would he, katrix? Because then he would be accused of seeing racism where none exists! But you should see what many other Blacks are saying on their forums, and it is not pretty. Many are liking this to how Blacks were portrayed during World War ll. Only then, it was supposed to depict how the 'coloured folks' were, who were, of course, powerless to react to such caricatures then. This is seen as a continuation of such racism, only in a more subtle form, especially the deliberate image of the Afro style, harking back to Angela Davis and the aggressive 'Black Power' period. Racism is highly intentional here as the media does nothing by accident..

                                                  • 1 vote
                                                  #19.11 - Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:55 PM EDT
                                                  Reply
                                                  Steve Watts

                                                  I don't doubt that the cover was meant as satire to mock the pervasive rumors about Obama's religion and some people's inexplicable fear of him. On the other hand, it's not incredibly clear just from looking at the image that it's not meant seriously. So people who have that negative view of Obama would take it as a feather in their cap rather than a scathing indictment of their mindset.

                                                  I suppose that's the problem with satire. It's meant to imitate, so when it does its job best the people it's mocking think it's supporting them.

                                                  • 4 votes
                                                  Reply#20 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:43 PM EDT
                                                  katrix

                                                  I suppose that's the problem with satire. It's meant to imitate, so when it does its job best the people it's mocking think it's supporting them.

                                                  Yeah, I've noticed that on NV - we're supposed to put Satire tags on satire articles, but for me it kills the whole point of writing or seeding satire!

                                                  • 3 votes
                                                  #20.1 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:48 PM EDT
                                                  Ms CYPRAH

                                                  On the other hand, it's not incredibly clear just from looking at the image that it's not meant seriously. So people who have that negative view of Obama would take it as a feather in their cap rather than a scathing indictment of their mindset.

                                                  Thank you, Steve, well said, because that is what makes that cartoon so offensive. It is not clear that it is satire.

                                                  • 2 votes
                                                  #20.2 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:24 PM EDT
                                                  wmolaw

                                                  Ms. Cyprah:

                                                  Thank you, Steve, well said, because that is what makes that cartoon so offensive. It is not clear that it is satire

                                                  It's the NEW YORKER for criminy's sake! Doesn't context mean anything?

                                                  It is so over the top that it couldn't be anything BUT satire.

                                                  • 3 votes
                                                  #20.3 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:06 PM EDT
                                                  Ms CYPRAH

                                                  It's the NEW YORKER for criminy's sake! Doesn't context mean anything?

                                                  And that justifies everything they do, does it, wmolaw?

                                                  • 1 vote
                                                  #20.4 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:22 PM EDT
                                                  katrix

                                                  If you look at the other political covers they've had over the years, then yes it does.

                                                  • 2 votes
                                                  #20.5 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:36 PM EDT
                                                  wmolaw

                                                  Ms. Cyprah:

                                                  This was satire, it was on the New Yorker's front page (not a "right wing" publication, by any means).

                                                  Sorry if you see it as "racist," even though there were not demeaning images of blacks in the picture.

                                                  Unless you see being portrayed as a muslim is demeaning.

                                                  Frankly, will we have to suffer through a discussion of "racism" each and every time some magazine comes out with something about Obama, or each time an attack ad is brought out against Obama?

                                                  Sheesh.

                                                  • 1 vote
                                                  #20.6 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:56 AM EDT
                                                  Jack Huang
                                                  Doesn't context mean anything?

                                                  And that justifies everything they do, does it, wmolaw?

                                                  Apparently, Cyprah doesn't value context at all. Since when did pointing out a satirical cover turn into "justifies everything they do"? You know better, Cyprah.

                                                  • 1 vote
                                                  #20.7 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:48 AM EDT
                                                  Ms CYPRAH

                                                  Unless you see being portrayed as a muslim is demeaning.

                                                  No, wmolaw, I see being dressed as a terrorist armed with a gun as exceedingly demeaning. Unless, of course, that caricature conforms to how White Americans perceive Black Americans?

                                                  • 1 vote
                                                  #20.8 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:47 PM EDT
                                                  wmolaw

                                                  Ms. Cyprah:

                                                  Now, are you upset because of the portrayal of muslims, or the fact that Obama, who is black, is being portrayed this way?

                                                  Or are you just upset, period.

                                                  Which is it?

                                                  By the way, Obama was not "dressed as a terrorist" nor was he "armed with a gun."

                                                  Maybe you need to review the cover again.

                                                  • 1 vote
                                                  #20.9 - Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:39 AM EDT
                                                  Ms CYPRAH

                                                  Now, are you upset because of the portrayal of muslims, or the fact that Obama, who is black, is being portrayed this way?

                                                  All of that, I would say. It is just the sheer negative and fearful content of it, playing on people's worst fears of both 'Black power' and Muslim fanaticism, especially in these sensitive times, which I find most disturbing.

                                                  By the way, Obama was not "dressed as a terrorist" nor was he "armed with a gun."

                                                  This is splitting hairs, wmolaw. His wife is, and they are presented as a team working together.

                                                  • 1 vote
                                                  #20.10 - Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:00 PM EDT
                                                  Reply
                                                  caroaber

                                                  Are they saving the best for last?

                                                  Sen. Obama hasn't been portrayed as a homicidal criminal, a hip-hop thug, angry Native Son Bigger Thomas or chasing after white girls... yet.

                                                  Eureka! Perhaps they'll follow up with a depiction of Obama schtupping Ann Coulter. Let's hear it for bipartisan reconciliation.

                                                  • 3 votes
                                                  Reply#21 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:45 PM EDT
                                                  Ms CYPRAH

                                                  Are they saving the best for last?

                                                  Great comment, caroaber. I am waiting with baited breath!

                                                  • 1 vote
                                                  #21.1 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:20 PM EDT
                                                  katrix

                                                  Perhaps they'll follow up with a depiction of Obama schtupping Ann Coulter.

                                                  Caroaber, I don't even know you but I don't like you. You almost made me lose my dinner either laughing or gagging, and it was a pretty good dinner! What a visual - anyone schtupping Coulter, although at least you didn't mention Gingrich doing it :)

                                                  • 1 vote
                                                  #21.2 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:38 PM EDT
                                                  wmolaw

                                                  Caroaber:

                                                  GW has been portrayed as everything evil, everything. Name it, and he's been portrayed as it.

                                                  Funny, haven't heard such a stink about those remarks, cartoons, covers, etc., etc.

                                                  But, when its OBAMA, the second coming -- WATCH OUT!

                                                  Pshaw.

                                                  Here's another interesting article:

                                                  Anti-Obama Bloggers Question Why Google Froze Their Accounts

                                                  • 2 votes
                                                  #21.3 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:58 AM EDT
                                                  Reply
                                                  Serenity_78

                                                  I'm not going to get into the racist or non-racist thing. It was in bad taste on a personal level though and I think there should be a public apology if nothing else. Makes me remember why I don't get into the whole political mess to begin with. It's like everyone resorted to typical schoolyard bully behavior and it's just stupid.

                                                  • 1 vote
                                                  Reply#22 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:14 PM EDT
                                                  TheJonesGirl

                                                  I'm trying (and failing) to think of an equally bad-taste caricature of McCain that they could use for a cover. Anyone?

                                                  Maybe McCain in a casket?

                                                  • 1 vote
                                                  Reply#23 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:31 PM EDT
                                                  evano

                                                  What the criticism of this New Yorker cover really translates to:

                                                  Most of us intellectually superior supporters of Senator Obama will understand the satire intended by the artist who created the cartoon. However, the "little people" who only read The National Enquirer and the like haven't got the brainpower to distinguish between this illustration and photographic reality. Therefore, this illustration and any potentially ambiguous materials capable of being misinterpreted by our less-intelligent fellow citizens must be prohibited for society's protection. In order to avoid the charge of "elitism", however, we'll claim that we object to the drawing because it is "racist." As we all know, "racist" beats "elitist" like rock beats scissors.

                                                  Such attitudes among his supporters is why I will not count myself among the Obama Nation, although I will definitely vote for Senator Obama on the November ballot as the best dish on a lousy menu.

                                                  • 3 votes
                                                  Reply#24 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:35 PM EDT
                                                  determined0a1

                                                  Maybe McCain in a casket?

                                                  ????????

                                                    #24.1 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 6:14 PM EDT
                                                    wmolaw

                                                    Evano:

                                                    Actually, that is a good point.

                                                    • 1 vote
                                                    #24.2 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:00 AM EDT
                                                    Reply
                                                    magz

                                                    I have no idea why a lot of folks consider this deragotary comment on Obama's campaign. This mocks people who can't think beyond a turban, who consider a black woman nothing more than a prop for a good automatic weapon. Hell, if you think Barak and Michelle are dangerous, how do you feel about Dubya (and I will leave Laura out of this, just to stick it to people who are after Michelle)?

                                                    It's a pointed, satirical cartoon designed as a wet dream for racists!

                                                    • 2 votes
                                                    Reply#25 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:50 PM EDT
                                                    determined0a1

                                                    if you think Barak and Michelle are dangerous, how do you feel about Dubya (and I will leave Laura out of this,

                                                    I don't have a tiny bit of room for learning new comments.

                                                    Everything in the dictionary had been written in the NYT and here.

                                                      #25.1 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 6:16 PM EDT
                                                      Ms CYPRAH

                                                      It's a pointed, satirical cartoon designed as a wet dream for racists!

                                                      Precisely, magz.

                                                      • 1 vote
                                                      #25.2 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:50 PM EDT
                                                      Reply
                                                      g-lowell

                                                      I did give the evidence, g-lowell. You are the one who is in denial about it. I will repeat it again for your benefit. There has been no White politicians shown as a terrorist in such a negative manner, for whatever reason, thus I will continue to insist that it is racism.

                                                      You claim that the simple lack of The New Yorker having a white politician in a similar cartoon makes it racism. However, I do not follow that logic. Please tell me what is racist about the cartoon.

                                                      Let's just assume for a second that the creator of this cartoon was attempting to discredit Obama. If that is the case, how is that cartoon attacking Obama's race? If we take the aforementioned assumption to be true, it would be an attack on Obama's motivations in running for President, not his race.

                                                      Let's just make another assumption for the sake of argument though, that this cartoon is racist and targeted at Obama. You still fail to show how that would mean that the cartoon is somehow saying that all black people are terrorists, which you claimed.

                                                      As to me not understanding the nature of racism, your patronising perspective knows no bounds! I guess you understand it clearly, which is why you are prepared to excuse racist acts, even when they are staring you in the face so that you can be excused from having to deal with it.

                                                      Please do not put words in my mouth. I never once said you do not understand the nature of racism, I only said that in this instance you are crying wolf.

                                                      And no, I do not excuse racist acts when they are staring me in the face, which is why I commented on your article.

                                                      • 3 votes
                                                      Reply#26 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:51 PM EDT
                                                      g-lowell

                                                      Sorry this got posted twice, I don't know how that happened.

                                                        #26.1 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:44 PM EDT
                                                        Ms CYPRAH

                                                        I think there are gremlins today. I did think I was seeing things! :o(

                                                        • 1 vote
                                                        #26.2 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:51 PM EDT
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